Daddy! What did you do?!!!

Rob wrote:

The controller likely didn't want you interfering with
the big boys on downwind south of PHX runways 7/8/25/26.

Yes, that is the primary airline arrival corridor for traffic from the West.

I fly out of
Deer Valley Airport northeast of PHX, and I've never been refused the
(other) VFR transition route North/South over Sky Harbor

Me too, and me neither.

As far as the general issue of different tracons having different personalities, I agree, and in general the
Phoenix tracon is not all that accommodating of GA. There's a huge amount of GA training traffic, and for
the most part they put up with us, and in general the service is adequate, but it's nothing like Socal. For
impromptu IFR clearances, tower enroute, etc. Socal is VERY GA friendly by comparison.

Mike

Rob wrote in
ps.com:

EridanMan wrote:
I guess I'm just wondering if there is any regular and consistent
"personality" differences between Bravo Approach regions throughout
the country, and if my comfort in Bravo is partly because I'm used to
a particular control area that just happens to be very 'nice'?

I haven't flown repeatedly in enough different class B to correlate
attitude to a particular location, but I have flown VFR in a light
single across the country and back twice and flown in or near class B
in at least Phoenix, Las Vegas, Chicago, Cleveland, Pittsburgh,
Philadelphia, and Memphis. On my initial call, I usually try to give
an approach controller an opportunity to call back when he has a break
in the action by saying something like "Approach, Grumman 12345, VFR
with request". I've had responses all the way from "Grumman 12345
squawk VFR, remain VFR, remain clear of class bravo airspace good day"
to the usual "Grumman 12345 say request" to "Grumman 12345 RADAR
contact 30 east of XYZ level 8500, XYZ altimeter 29.92, squawk 4567,
cleared into class bravo airspace, let me know when you want to
descend".

-R


The most interesting response I had was going into LAS many years ago,
shortly after the air space became alphabet soup. I was over Hoover Dam
and the frequency stated on ATIS was non-stop with air tour traffic.
Looking at the TAC, there was a diffeent frequency listed for that area, so
I tried it. It appeared quiet, so I broadcast "Las Vegas Approach, Archer
12345 over Hoover Damn squawking VFR request". The response, much to my
surprise, was "Archer 12345 squawk 1234 clear to enter the Las Vegas Class
Bravo say request."

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)

On Fri, 24 Aug 2007 20:50:16 -0000, EridanMan
wrote:

This does get me thinking-
snip
I guess I'm just wondering if there is any regular and consistent
"personality" differences between Bravo Approach regions throughout
the country, and if my comfort in Bravo is pes without even asking, and for no real reason). I do the bayshore
freeway transition probably three or four times a week without so much
as a batted eyelash from ATC.
artly because I'm used to
a particular control area that just happens to be very 'nice'?

Clearances for VFR / Bravo airspace transitions seem to vary widely
depending on the facility. While traveling on VFR x-c's I have been
cleared into Bravo many times. On the other hand, I have been flying
in the Chicago ORD area for 10+ years now, and have had exactly 1 VFR
Bravo transition, and that was at 1 in the morning.

-Nathan

In my experience, Atlanta and Dallas are always hyper and very curt.

Hmmm...I did my commercial/instrument training at Corsicana, Tx.
(Navarro College) and made regular forrays to Love field (Southwest's
home). I loved the sprawling metropolis, especially at night, and the
tour of downtown Big D approaching Love was always a treat.
I was never under the impression that Dallas was hyper or curt,
although maybe they were and that's all I had experience with at the
time.
Going to Love seemed easy, just call regional approach shortly after
departure from Corsicana and do what they tell you...

Ricky

Steve Schneider wrote:
I did manage to take a couple of pictures of the Lance with the police
cars on the ramp. You can seem them at the bottom of this URL:

http://www.4-fs.com/new/flying/2007-08-18-P19.htm

Only a fiver per night for transient tie-down?

Taste my envy!

TheSmokingGnu

Wow, ok, I think this might almost be worth an entirely new thread
but...

"With Request".

I have heard repeatedly, from multiple instructors and fellow pilots,
that this is a major pet-peeve of ATC, and unless they are in a good
mood, almost guarantees that they will simply dismiss you as a "Timid
weekend flyer" (Not my words, please don't kill the messenger!!)

Generally I would take such advice with a grain of salt, if it weren't
for the large variety of (in my opinion) very skilled, experienced,
and professional pilots who had all provided the _EXACT_ same advice:

(and from now on, I'm paraphrasing)

They all say the same thing... "With request" is akin to "asking for
advice", I.E. "I'm not sure if I need X service or not, so I'm going
to take your airtime and ask you if your willing to give it to me...
But its not that important".

That's not their job, their job is to keep everything flowing
smoothly, not tell you whether or not you should take X or Y route...
You are the PIC, you hold the flight plan, you decide where your plane
is going. Your job is simply to inform them of your plan as clearly
and professionally as possible, and they will inform you if
circumstances require you to deviate from it. Nothing more, nothing
less.

/Paraphrase

I'll be the first to admit I'm 160 hour pilot... a rookie at best
(neophyte more like it)... But this advice comes from an ATP, the
owner of a local Aircraft Dealership, and my Instructor - none of whom
have ever met eachother, all of whom are in the 4 and 5 figures of
flight time, and the explanation given was always the same.

And, it kinda makes sense...

IMHO at least.

On Fri, 24 Aug 2007 20:50:16 -0000, EridanMan
wrote:

I guess I'm just wondering if there is any regular and consistent
"personality" differences between Bravo Approach regions throughout
the country, and if my comfort in Bravo is partly because I'm used to
a particular control area that just happens to be very 'nice'?

I've never had issues with NY, Boston, or Philly. My co-owner was
blown away by a few contacts with DFW with how easy they were to deal
with.

I'll usually check which approaches are in use at the protected
airports before I leave, and make an effort to keep my path clear of
them, as well as request the transitions displayed on terminal area
charts. I'll also have my ducks in a row before I radio them, and
usually be on a VFR FF as I approach the space.

NY is far busier than Boston, and requires clear comms and fast,
concise answers. Boston often doesn't seem all that different than
some Charlie spaces. I have heard NY brush off plenty of stutterers.
G

I haven't flown in SFO space, but it sounds like we have similar
experiences.

EridanMan wrote:

"With Request".

I have heard repeatedly, from multiple instructors and fellow pilots,
that this is a major pet-peeve of ATC, and unless they are in a good
mood, almost guarantees that they will simply dismiss you as a "Timid
weekend flyer" (Not my words, please don't kill the messenger!!)

I seem to recall reading a Don Brown column on Avweb some time ago where he encouraged the "with
request" on initial call up. He said this helps the controller to realize that this is someone new that he
hasn't been talking to, rather than having to scan his scope and try to determine if this is a tail number
that he should be recognizing. I've had a few occasions where the controller will come back with a
squawk code immediately, and then ask for the request. So it gives them a heads up without taking a lot
of air time on initial call up.

Mike

"Mike Adams" wrote in message
...
EridanMan wrote:

"With Request".

I have heard repeatedly, from multiple instructors and fellow pilots,
that this is a major pet-peeve of ATC, and unless they are in a good
mood, almost guarantees that they will simply dismiss you as a "Timid
weekend flyer" (Not my words, please don't kill the messenger!!)

I seem to recall reading a Don Brown column on Avweb some time ago where
he encouraged the "with
request" on initial call up. He said this helps the controller to realize
that this is someone new that he
hasn't been talking to, rather than having to scan his scope and try to
determine if this is a tail number
that he should be recognizing. I've had a few occasions where the
controller will come back with a
squawk code immediately, and then ask for the request. So it gives them a
heads up without taking a lot
of air time on initial call up.



Huh, my memory may be off, but I seem to remember him saying that you don't
"request to make a request". Just make the request on the initial callup.
(I quickly found the one below, but I remember him siging every time he
wrote that someone said something like: "Atlanta Center, Cessna one two
three for five, request.")

I would think that around here, it would be much much faster to say (oh,
yeah, and say it fast and pay attention!):

Detroit approach, Cessna 12345 at Salem, request bravo transtion to Grosse
Isle
Cessna 12345, Detroit Approach, unable, there's a cloud in the sky [Ok,
exageration again....follow the bloody flyways around the horn and hope you
don't get hit by a freigher under the shelf g]


http://www.avweb.com/news/sayagain/190337-1.html

quote
I've tried numerous times before, and I'm going to try to make this point
again: If you want my attention and you don't want to hear me say, "Say
again," then use my name. That would be "Atlanta Center."

"Atlanta Center, Cessna one two three for five, request."

I hear this exact transmission at least 25 times a day. Now tell me, is this
guy IFR or VFR? What does he want? He is literally making a request two make
a request. It's a waste of time. If you're going to make a request, then
make a request. Even if it's something out of the ordinary. Condense it down
to one or two words.

"Atlanta Center, Cessna one two three for five, request routing change."

If you think the routing change will be too complicated for a controller two
get "on the fly" -- the first time you say it -- you've now got the
controller's attention and he is prepared to write down your routing
request.

If you're just requesting direct to a fix you've already filed, you're
wasting time. We already know everybody wants to go direct. If you can't
stop yourself from asking, then at least do it in one transmission.

"Atlanta Center, Cessna one two three for five, request direct Spartanburg."

/quote

--
Doug Semler, MCPD
a.a. #705, BAAWA. EAC Guardian of the Horn of the IPU (pbuhh).
The answer is 42; DNRC o-
Gur Hfrarg unf orpbzr fb shyy bs penc gurfr qnlf, abbar rira
erpbtavmrf fvzcyr guvatf yvxr ebg13 nalzber. Fnq, vfa'g vg?

"Doug Semler" wrote:

Huh, my memory may be off, but I seem to remember him saying that you
don't "request to make a request". Just make the request on the
initial callup.

OK, fair enough. I browsed through his archives and can't find what I was recalling. Too bad he's retired, I
always enjoyed his columns. He does seem to prefer "Atlanta Center, N12345 request VFR advisories"
as an initial call up. The point I was trying to make is to distinguish between a brand new contact and
someone already in the system that he should recognize. Also, on a busy frequency, it's definitely better
to give a short initial "wake-up" call rather than all the details of your request.

Mike