Club Management Issue

Except that the owner IS responsible for airplane maintenance.

OTOH, the owner is generally not responsible for checking the weather
before flight.


"Geoffrey Barnes" wrote in
k.net:

It is not his fault that the airplane broke.

Agreed.

As a Devil's advocate point, though, it's also not a VFR pilot's fault
when the weather closes in and traps them at a remote airport. But
it's still the renter's responsiblity to get that plane back home so
that other people can use it, even if it means paying for two IFR club
members to come get the plane.


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I'll add to that another point, which may largely depend on the
club/school...

At the school where I used to rent from before I got into the flight club
that I am in now, if someone got stuck for weather, they would not force
you to try to get the plane back - especially if you called to let them
know ahead of time that you were anticipating the possibility of weather
delays. If someone else was scheduled on the plane after you, they would
try to find a way to make alternate arrangements so that your delay would
not impact anyone else.

However, if you decided that you could not wait it out, and wanted to
have someone come "save" you, then it was your choice, and you were
responsible for the expenses associated with doing that (ie, the cost of
two instrument rated CFIs to fly out and get you home, as well as the
rental time on both planes round trip).

They were also as accomodating as could be, though. For example, I once
got almost all the way home when the weather started closing in, and my
airport became IFR. I landed at the nearest airport I could get to (about
20 miles away), and called up and told them about my situation. I waited
most of the day, and decided it wasn't getting better quick. One of the
school instructors was already planning to take an IFR student shooting
approaches at the airport where I got stuck. So a second instructors
"hitched" a ride with him, and they dropped him off so he could save me.
As a result, they didn't charge me for any of the first CFI's time, or
the other plane's time.

Their policy was overshadowed by the feeling that no one should be
pressured into flying in poor weather. If someone can't wait for better
weather, then it is HIS decision to get "saved", and he should bear the
cost. But if you start penalizing people for getting delayed by weather,
I think you are inviting people to take risks and make bad decisions.


"Geoffrey Barnes" wrote in
k.net:

It is not his fault that the airplane broke.

Agreed.

As a Devil's advocate point, though, it's also not a VFR pilot's fault
when the weather closes in and traps them at a remote airport. But
it's still the renter's responsiblity to get that plane back home so
that other people can use it, even if it means paying for two IFR club
members to come get the plane.


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"Mike Rapoport" wrote in message
k.net

Are you saying that the original renter should be responsible for the
rent on the return flight? It is not his fault that the airplane
broke.


Are you saying that the club should be responsible for the rent? It's not
their fault the plane broke.

While it's not the pilot's fault that maintenance was required, he would
have paid the return rental time if the breakdown hadn't occurred, right?
Every club agreement I've seen has covered this with something along the
lines of "pilot is responsible for the cost to return the plane." This does
not necessarily include time on the ground doing run-up tests or circuits
around the distant airport to test repairs, but the air time between the
airports would have been incurred by the pilot in any case.

Now, if the previously stranded pilot had volunteered to fly/drive out to
retrieve the plane, I'd be more willing to entertain the option of the club
covering some or all of the cost of retrieval. In this case, he was
unwilling or unable to do that so I think the club would be fair in charging
him the cost of retrieving the plane as well as the roundtrip rental for the
plane flying the replacement pilot (if that had been necessary).

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/TknoFlyer
http://www.pocketgear.com/products_s...veloperid=4415
____________________

It would be fair in my view to charge him the hours for the return trip only
if you deducted the cost of his other transportation home.

Still, as a man who rents an airplane out, I would not charge him for diddly
unless I thought he may have been responsible for the failure.

You kill the battery, foul the plugs, pop the otherwise good tires, etc. and
you are on the hook. If its something that is not usually caused by loose
nuts behind the yoke, then I will treat you like a customer ought to expect
from a vendor.





"John T" wrote in message
ws.com...
"Mike Rapoport" wrote in message
k.net

Are you saying that the original renter should be responsible for the
rent on the return flight? It is not his fault that the airplane
broke.


Are you saying that the club should be responsible for the rent? It's not
their fault the plane broke.

While it's not the pilot's fault that maintenance was required, he would
have paid the return rental time if the breakdown hadn't occurred, right?
Every club agreement I've seen has covered this with something along the
lines of "pilot is responsible for the cost to return the plane." This
does
not necessarily include time on the ground doing run-up tests or circuits
around the distant airport to test repairs, but the air time between the
airports would have been incurred by the pilot in any case.

Now, if the previously stranded pilot had volunteered to fly/drive out to
retrieve the plane, I'd be more willing to entertain the option of the
club
covering some or all of the cost of retrieval. In this case, he was
unwilling or unable to do that so I think the club would be fair in
charging
him the cost of retrieving the plane as well as the roundtrip rental for
the
plane flying the replacement pilot (if that had been necessary).

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/TknoFlyer
http://www.pocketgear.com/products_s...veloperid=4415
____________________

"Dude" wrote in message


Still, as a man who rents an airplane out, I would not charge him for
diddly unless I thought he may have been responsible for the failure.

You kill the battery, foul the plugs, pop the otherwise good tires,
etc. and you are on the hook. If its something that is not usually
caused by loose nuts behind the yoke, then I will treat you like a
customer ought to expect from a vendor.


If the relationship between the club and the pilot is one of vendor and
customer, then I generally agree with you. However, the equation may change
depending on the finances of the club (IOW, how expenses are handled) and
the membership agreement.

In my current club, each member owns an equal share of the planes. In my
last "club", I was nothing more than a privileged renter. The difference
between the two relationships highlights the differences in perspective than
can be applied to the OP's question.

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/TknoFlyer
http://www.pocketgear.com/products_s...veloperid=4415
____________________

Dude wrote:
It would be fair in my view to charge him the hours for the return trip only
if you deducted the cost of his other transportation home.

Still, as a man who rents an airplane out, I would not charge him for diddly
unless I thought he may have been responsible for the failure.

You kill the battery, foul the plugs, pop the otherwise good tires, etc. and
you are on the hook. If its something that is not usually caused by loose
nuts behind the yoke, then I will treat you like a customer ought to expect
from a vendor.

Bingo! I was hoping someone would say that. I've owned an aircraft that was
leased to a flying club, and that would have been my reaction. I wouldn't do it
as a matter of written policy, but in a case like this where there is a dispute,
I would have stepped in and offered to cover all the costs (while hoping that
some of the other parties would say "awww, that's OK"), and considered it just
good customer relations... then I would have talked to the club about getting
the policy nailed down. This is way too little money to get upset about measured
against the scale of aircraft ownership expenses.

Dave
Remove SHIRT to reply directly.

The renter was rented a defective airplane. It is either the owner's or the
club's responsibility to ensure that the plane works.

Mike
MU-2


"John T" wrote in message
ws.com...
"Mike Rapoport" wrote in message
k.net

Are you saying that the original renter should be responsible for the
rent on the return flight? It is not his fault that the airplane
broke.


Are you saying that the club should be responsible for the rent? It's not
their fault the plane broke.

While it's not the pilot's fault that maintenance was required, he would
have paid the return rental time if the breakdown hadn't occurred, right?
Every club agreement I've seen has covered this with something along the
lines of "pilot is responsible for the cost to return the plane." This
does
not necessarily include time on the ground doing run-up tests or circuits
around the distant airport to test repairs, but the air time between the
airports would have been incurred by the pilot in any case.

Now, if the previously stranded pilot had volunteered to fly/drive out to
retrieve the plane, I'd be more willing to entertain the option of the
club
covering some or all of the cost of retrieval. In this case, he was
unwilling or unable to do that so I think the club would be fair in
charging
him the cost of retrieving the plane as well as the roundtrip rental for
the
plane flying the replacement pilot (if that had been necessary).

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/TknoFlyer
http://www.pocketgear.com/products_s...veloperid=4415
____________________

Peter R. wrote in message ...
Geoffrey Barnes ) wrote:

Mark (the non-club member who flew everyone down there) would like
to be reimbursed for his fuel costs, which are around $175.

Hmmm... reads to me like "Mark" is asking for more than his fair share of
the direct flight costs, which would be in violation of FAR part 91
regulations.

Here's how I see it:

Our A&P charged us $100 for the travel time back and forth.

Owners should pay this fee and thank their lucky stars that an A&P was not
called out of bed on a Sunday night to fix it. Hell, had our FBO's A&Ps
replaced an alternator during normal business hours, it would have easily
been $250 for parts and labor.

The parts and labor to fix the 182 amounted to $70.

Owners.

Don't forget there is the cost of the A&P's hourly rate to ride in the
plane out there. If the owners were not asked about this first, the
club should pay. The owners could have elected to use a local A&P who
didn't need transport. It was a luxery of the club to quickly send out
their own A&P. The owners may have said, "Let it sit for a week until
old Bill (who lives out there) gets a chance to look at it".


Mark (the non-club member who flew everyone down there) would like
to be reimbursed for his fuel costs, which are around $175.

Divide $175 by three (three on board), then have the club pay Mark one
third for fuel.

And the 182's flight home racked up about $270 in rental fees,
about $225 of which would normally be sent directly to the aircraft owners.

Wouldn't the original pilot who got stranded at that airport have accrued
this rental fee regardless if the alternator failed? He had to return,
right? I assume the $270 rental fee is calculated based on flying time, not
ground time while awaiting repairs?

Remember, the student who flew it back got his flight instruction. Why
would that student expect to have free airplane time based on someone
else's straits? I would agree with you if it was just a CFI sent out
there, but a club member got to enjoy the airplane.



However, since the club does not have rules about being stranded, the club
should come up with the rental fees, then write a rule about being
stranded.




--
Peter












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"Geoffrey Barnes" wrote in message nk.net...
First off, I'm not directly involved in this situation, but I am trying to
gain an understanding on how other FBOs and flying clubs deal with something
like it.

One of our club members was flying our 182 -- which the club leases from the
two gentlemen who own it -- and had what appeared to be an alternator
failure. I'll call this person "Paul" to keep things straight. Anyway,
"Paul" landed at an airport several hundred miles away late on Sunday night.
There is an A&P at the field during normal working hours, but not on Sunday
night. Rather than wait, Paul decided to rent a car and drive home, leaving
the 182 behind.

On Monday, our club A&P cashed in some favors with a client of his, who
we'll call "Mark". Mark agreed to take the mechanic to the remote airport
in Mark's personal aircraft. If it maters, Mark is not a member of the
flying club, but is friendly with several of our members and was willing to
help us out. Once all of this was arranged, Paul was asked if he would like
to go along on the trip, but he said he was unable to do so. So instead,
one of our club CFIs and another club member ("Luke") -- who were scheduled
to do some instrument training that evening in a different aircraft --
agreed to go along and fly the 182 back after the mechanic got things
squared away.

Despite it being a long evening for everyone, it all worked out pretty well.
The aircraft is back, the repairs were fairly cheap, Luke got his instrument
lesson on the way home, and nobody even missed a scheduled flight in the
182. But a debate is raging concerning the costs for getting everything
done. Unfortuneately, the club does not seem to have any specific rules
about this kind of situation. This lack of guidance from the club rule book
rather suprises me, and I hope to fix that issue in the very near future.
But for the moment, we need to make up policy as we go along.

There are four different costs involved here. Our A&P charged us $100 for
the travel time back and forth. The parts and labor to fix the 182 amounted
to $70. Mark (the non-club member who flew everyone down there) would like
to be reimbursed for his fuel costs, which are around $175. And the 182's
flight home racked up about $270 in rental fees, about $225 of which would
normally be sent directly to the aircraft owners.

Under the terms of our lease with the owners of the 182, they are
responsible for maintence costs, so the $70 to fix the plane seems to be
pretty clearly their responsibility. All of the other costs are, with the
club's lack of written policy, open to debate at the moment. What would
your club or FBO do in this situation?

First of all the instrument student is 100% responsible for the 182
ride back. He got his instruction. What type of cheap tight wad is he
thinking he could get free flight instruction time just because the
plane was somewhere else.


The real question is, who manages the maintenance? I've been in clubs
where its the club and I've been in clubs where its the owner. If the
club manages the maintenance than the extra costs are probably all on
the club.
If the owner manages the maint. then someone should have called the
owner and asked them if they wanted to fly someone out there. This
could have been done w/o flying (i.e. driving). The airplane owner
really should have been consulted and given the choice.

Basically, it sounds like no one was managing the operation. At each
step someone should have been saying, "Do we need to pay this". "Do we
need to fly an A&P out there or use a local A&P'. "Do we need to fly
anyone out there or just send a CFI in a pickup to go get the plane".
Since no one was in charge, you got the mess you would expect.

Having had an aircraft on leaseback, and reading the other replys here
is what I would expect:

The 182 owners should pony up for all the repair bills including the
A&P travel time. It's not very much and they are getting off easy.

The rental income is just that, handle it just like and other normal
rental.

Mark is on slippery ground and at best should get only a small amount
if any money back.

The way it should have happened is another on of the clubs aircraft
should have been used to fly everyone out. Then the club could either
write that time off, or charge some basic cost(fuel/oil/etc) back to
the 182's owners as part of the maintenance bill. This would/should be
part of the club bylaws.


"Geoffrey Barnes" wrote in message nk.net...
First off, I'm not directly involved in this situation, but I am trying to
gain an understanding on how other FBOs and flying clubs deal with something
like it.

One of our club members was flying our 182 -- which the club leases from the
two gentlemen who own it -- and had what appeared to be an alternator
failure. I'll call this person "Paul" to keep things straight. Anyway,
"Paul" landed at an airport several hundred miles away late on Sunday night.
There is an A&P at the field during normal working hours, but not on Sunday
night. Rather than wait, Paul decided to rent a car and drive home, leaving
the 182 behind.

On Monday, our club A&P cashed in some favors with a client of his, who
we'll call "Mark". Mark agreed to take the mechanic to the remote airport
in Mark's personal aircraft. If it maters, Mark is not a member of the
flying club, but is friendly with several of our members and was willing to
help us out. Once all of this was arranged, Paul was asked if he would like
to go along on the trip, but he said he was unable to do so. So instead,
one of our club CFIs and another club member ("Luke") -- who were scheduled
to do some instrument training that evening in a different aircraft --
agreed to go along and fly the 182 back after the mechanic got things
squared away.

Despite it being a long evening for everyone, it all worked out pretty well.
The aircraft is back, the repairs were fairly cheap, Luke got his instrument
lesson on the way home, and nobody even missed a scheduled flight in the
182. But a debate is raging concerning the costs for getting everything
done. Unfortuneately, the club does not seem to have any specific rules
about this kind of situation. This lack of guidance from the club rule book
rather suprises me, and I hope to fix that issue in the very near future.
But for the moment, we need to make up policy as we go along.

There are four different costs involved here. Our A&P charged us $100 for
the travel time back and forth. The parts and labor to fix the 182 amounted
to $70. Mark (the non-club member who flew everyone down there) would like
to be reimbursed for his fuel costs, which are around $175. And the 182's
flight home racked up about $270 in rental fees, about $225 of which would
normally be sent directly to the aircraft owners.

Under the terms of our lease with the owners of the 182, they are
responsible for maintence costs, so the $70 to fix the plane seems to be
pretty clearly their responsibility. All of the other costs are, with the
club's lack of written policy, open to debate at the moment. What would
your club or FBO do in this situation?


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