Troubling story and some questions

On Jan 1, 5:01*pm, wrote:

I am very surprised that no one here, let alone yourself, thought of
the obvious: contact Reno Approach and advise them of your situation.

Hello Reno approach experimental glider Nxxxx I need to climb into
class Bravo to avoid exceeding Vne.

Experimental glider standby - American 1364 descend and maintain
14,000.

American 1364 out of 210 for 14,000

Experimental glider Nxxxx this is Reno approach say position and
altitude and say again request.

Reno I'm at 18,500 and at position yyyy and I need to continue climb
into class B to avoid structural failure.

Glider Nxxxx squawk xxxx and ident.

Never mind my wings came off!

wrote:
I am very surprised that no one here, let alone yourself, thought of
the obvious: contact Reno Approach and advise them of your situation.
That would have alerted them to check for any possible conflicts and
clear the area around you of other traffic until you could get clear
of Class A airspace. You were negligent - and in violation of FARs -
by not doing this. Reno could have easily cleared you into Class A
until you could take appropriate actions. We ARE allowed to violate
FARs in an emergency, but this does not relieve you of your
responsibility to minimize the violation to the extent possible.
Fortunately, you were carrying a transponder...

Doesn't this run contrary to the standard mantra of Aviate, Navigate,
Communicate? When something bad happens, first thing you do is fly the
plane. When you're exceeding your Vne by a large factor the first step
should be to quickly reduce speed. Talking to the controlling authority of
the airspace you're violating while doing so is a good idea but it should
come dead last on the priority list. From the way the story was told, it
sounded like by the time the pilot could catch his breath and stop
worrying about his imminent demise long enough to devote some attention to
the radio, he was already back below the class A.

--
Michael Ash
Rogue Amoeba Software

Andy wrote:

Never mind my wings came off!


You missed the point. In this scenario the advice to declare an
emergency on the appropriate frequency and state your intentions/present
actions will at least keep you legal with regard to that portion of the
flight. There may still be some follow-up, of course, and you are
answerable for certain airmanship considerations which put you in that
situation to start with, but you will have done what you can to keep the
situation from being magnified by traffic conflicts. You can't have your
cake and eat it too, with regard to the regs and proper procedures, but
the best course of action involves doing the right pilot-thing NOW,
declaring an emergency as soon as possible, and filing an ASRS report
promptly after the flight. I've filed lots of them. And, I've never
waited for anything to come off the airplane prior to taking the action
needed, and then announcing the situation to ATC when reasonable to do so.

You are not asking for permission--you are telling them how it is where
you are and what you are doing about it, in order to keep them in the
loop. They will do what they can with other aircraft in the vicinity
that don't happen to be falling out of the sky at that particular moment
in order to minimize any conflicts.

_File an ASRS promptly_ after any unusual incident. It helps the system,
and it helps YOU.



Jack

J a c k wrote:
Andy wrote:

Never mind my wings came off!


You missed the point. In this scenario the advice to declare an
emergency on the appropriate frequency and state your intentions/present
actions will at least keep you legal with regard to that portion of the
flight. There may still be some follow-up, of course, and you are
answerable for certain airmanship considerations which put you in that
situation to start with, but you will have done what you can to keep the
situation from being magnified by traffic conflicts. You can't have your
cake and eat it too, with regard to the regs and proper procedures, but
the best course of action involves doing the right pilot-thing NOW,
declaring an emergency as soon as possible, and filing an ASRS report
promptly after the flight. I've filed lots of them. And, I've never
waited for anything to come off the airplane prior to taking the action
needed, and then announcing the situation to ATC when reasonable to do so.

You are not asking for permission--you are telling them how it is where
you are and what you are doing about it, in order to keep them in the
loop. They will do what they can with other aircraft in the vicinity
that don't happen to be falling out of the sky at that particular moment
in order to minimize any conflicts.

_File an ASRS promptly_ after any unusual incident. It helps the system,
and it helps YOU.

Diverging a bit: I assume the OP is subject to regulatory action
against any license he has (presumably glider at least). However, the
glider he was flying is an ultralight and can be flown without a pilot's
license and without the glider being certficated. Can he keep flying it
(assuming it hasn't been given an N number of course)?


Shawn

On Jan 2, 9:51*am, Michael Ash wrote:
wrote:
I am very surprised that no one here, let alone yourself, thought of
the obvious: contact Reno Approach and advise them of your situation.
That would have alerted them to check for any possible conflicts and
clear the area around you of other traffic until you could get clear
of Class A airspace. You were negligent - and in violation of FARs -
by not doing this. Reno could have easily cleared you into Class A
until you could take appropriate actions. We ARE allowed to violate
FARs in an emergency, but this does not relieve you of your
responsibility to minimize the violation to the extent possible.
Fortunately, you were carrying a transponder...

Doesn't this run contrary to the standard mantra of Aviate, Navigate,
Communicate? When something bad happens, first thing you do is fly the
plane. When you're exceeding your Vne by a large factor the first step
should be to quickly reduce speed. Talking to the controlling authority of
the airspace you're violating while doing so is a good idea but it should
come dead last on the priority list. From the way the story was told, it
sounded like by the time the pilot could catch his breath and stop
worrying about his imminent demise long enough to devote some attention to
the radio, he was already back below the class A.

--
Michael Ash
Rogue Amoeba Software

The short answer is No. Here is what he said:

"I gently pulled the stick back and translated speed into altitude
going above 19k. At about 70 knots I pulled the spoilers and got
myself down to below 18k."

Sounds to me like he had plenty of time to do that communicate thing.
Hell, I can thermal, check airspeed and watch out for other gliders in
a gaggle while simultaneously talking on the radio. I once was dealing
with a microburst in the mountains when the controller at Hailey
wanted to know my situation (or something to that effect). I told him
I was busy and would talk to him later, which I did.

Tom

On Dec 31 2007, 7:06 am, "01-- Zero One" wrote:
Dave,

You had another option open to you other than pulling up to slow down to
extend brakes and therefore bumping higher into "no-no" airspace.

You could have maintained your airspeed but turned left or right to get
into weaker lift or light sink. Once you had lost enough altitude then
eased back over into the stronger lift regions.

Larry

"01" USA

Ventus 2bx

" wrote in message

:

Hi Gang
Last week Minden had some excellent wave soaring. Off tow at 7.7k
msl and within minutes up to 18k. I decided to go up north skirting
Reno Intl. I had the transponder on and was monitoring Reno Approach.
My goal was to try and fly as fast as possible maintaining an altitude
very close to 18k by speeding up in lift and slowing down in light
lift or sink. This worked well for the first 35 miles where my IAS
(indicated air speed) ranged between 50 knots and 110 knots flying
never less than 17k. Then I got into some real lift and pointed the
nose down and noticed my Becker transponder registering 18.2k which
is, of course, a no no. I then glanced at the IAS. It read 138 knots
which is 165 knots TAS. (Every 1000 feet of altitude above sea level
results in an error of 1.5% in IAS.) So what to do? If I pulled the
spoilers at that speed, the shock might destroy them or the glider. So
I gently pulled the stick back and translated speed into altitude
going above 19k. At about 70 knots I pulled the spoilers and got
myself down to below 18k. I wonder if ATC caught that? Why was this so
bad? Well the VNE at sea level for the SparrowHawk is 123 knots and it
has been demonstrated that at 171 knots the wings come off. This
really gave me cause for concern. How quickly one can get into trouble
by not paying attention. In the future I will fly slower and use the
spoilers to compensate for excessive lift so as to maintain altitude.
This story raises some questions about VNE at various altitudes
which should be of interest to all of us glider pilots. I Googled
combinations of words such as "flutter altitude", "VNE altitude" and
"aircraft breakup altitude" to try and come up with information on
whether the flutter/breakup characteristics of an aircraft are less at
altitude than sea level at the same TAS. Intuitively it would seem so
but intuition may not work here. I found nothing useful. I know that
the World's ultimate high altitude motor glider the U2, which was
designed in the 50s, had much study done on it with regard to its
operating speed window of about 20mph (stall to breakup)at 80k feet
msl. There should now be declassified documents on those studies which
might answer my questions. I would appreciate any pointers anyone. If
I find anything useful I will summarize it on RAS.
Flying is often unforgiving of errors and I will definitely be more
vigilant after this wake up call.
Dave

If I recall from training days, you can lose altitude faster in a
descending turn than you can in a straight line, even at the same
speed.
I don't think I can explain this late at night why I think this works,
but it sort of makes sense.

If I recall from training days, you can lose altitude faster in a
descending turn than you can in a straight line, even at the same
speed.
I don't think I can explain this late at night why I think this works,
but it sort of makes sense.- Hide quoted text -


It's due to the increased G's in a turn. Steeper turn, more G's, more
drag due to lift required to offset the Gs.

Same reason sink rate increases as you thermal steeper.

A bunch of G also helps keep the speed down in a steep, descending
turn (not a spiral, of course).

Perhaps time to hit the books again?

Kirk
66

On Jan 2, 10:10*am, J a c k wrote:

...the best course of action involves doing the right pilot-thing NOW,
declaring an emergency as soon as possible, and filing an ASRS report
promptly after the flight.

I would add a few points to amplify this basically sound logic:

1) Fly the airplane
2) Fly the airplane
3) Fly the airplane

If you need to go into controlled airspace without permission to
prevent destruction of your airplane and yourself, do not hesitate. Do
what you need to do to get back to a safe flying condition. If you get
back down bellow 18k promptly it might make sense to call ATC, but I'm
not sure what real purpose it serves other than meeting some FAR on
reporting youself appropriately and that need might be better served
through some other means than a radio call. Secondly, I'm not sure why
you'd hang out above 18k long enough to make the call before decending
via spoilers, but I guess it could happen. I think I'd be too busy
flying the airplane.

The airmanship point bears repeating in this case and in general.
Whenever you are flying near a limit (controlled airspace, Vne, severe
weather, terrain!) you need to exercise extra caution and presume that
conditions outside your control (lift, sink, gusts) could conspire
against you in the least favorable possible ways. I have seen many
people fly under these circumstances assuming that those conditions
will remain within (or close to) the ranges they have personally
experienced - I think it is prudent to assume something much less
favorable and keep margins appropriate to those assumptions. This
applies as much to assumptions about expected sink on final glide and
it does to assumptions about lift near 18,000'. One needs to be very
cautious about watching climb rate when above 17,000', particularly if
carrying any significant energy in the form of airspeed.

9B

On Jan 8, 8:15*am, wrote:
On Jan 2, 10:10*am, J a c k wrote:

...the best course of action involves doing the right pilot-thing NOW,
declaring an emergency as soon as possible, and filing an ASRS report
promptly after the flight.

I would add a few points to amplify this basically sound logic:

1) Fly the airplane
2) Fly the airplane
3) Fly the airplane

If you need to go into controlled airspace without permission to
prevent destruction of your airplane and yourself, do not hesitate. Do
what you need to do to get back to a safe flying condition. If you get
back down bellow 18k promptly it might make sense to call ATC, but I'm
not sure what real purpose it serves other than meeting some FAR on
reporting youself appropriately and that need might be better served
through some other means than a radio call. Secondly, I'm not sure why
you'd hang out above 18k long enough to make the call before decending
via spoilers, but I guess it could happen. I think I'd be too busy
flying the airplane.

The airmanship point bears repeating in this case and in general.
Whenever you are flying near a limit (controlled airspace, Vne, severe
weather, terrain!) you need to exercise extra caution and presume that
conditions outside your control (lift, sink, gusts) could conspire
against you in the least favorable possible ways. I have seen many
people fly under these circumstances assuming that those conditions
will remain within (or close to) the ranges they have personally
experienced - I think it is prudent to assume something much less
favorable and keep margins appropriate to those assumptions. This
applies as much to assumptions about expected sink on final glide and
it does to assumptions about lift near 18,000'. One needs to be very
cautious about watching climb rate when above 17,000', particularly if
carrying any significant energy in the form of airspeed.

9B


What part of the word "mid-air" don't you understand?

Following your logic the other principals of airmanship a

5. Don't navigate.
6. Don't communicate.

This guy was already stabilized, in control and in no immediate danger
of breaking up. Although he was, in my opinion, foolish to be flying
at Vne to begin with. He could have easily contacted Reno Approach w/o
compromising his safety. I just don't get your guy's logic; apparently
it is "We don't talk to controllers under any circumstances".

Let me be very clear: entering controlled airspace w/o clearance
endangers other people's lives. PERIOD. To think that this is just
some FAR technicality that you do if you feel like it is beyond me. If
you don't think you are willing or able to follow FARs you should STAY
ON THE GROUND! Remember, this is a priviledge that can be revoked.

Tom Seim

On Jan 8, 2:26*pm, wrote:
On Jan 8, 8:15*am, wrote:





On Jan 2, 10:10*am, J a c k wrote:

...the best course of action involves doing the right pilot-thing NOW,
declaring an emergency as soon as possible, and filing an ASRS report
promptly after the flight.

I would add a few points to amplify this basically sound logic:

1) Fly the airplane
2) Fly the airplane
3) Fly the airplane

If you need to go into controlled airspace without permission to
prevent destruction of your airplane and yourself, do not hesitate. Do
what you need to do to get back to a safe flying condition. If you get
back down bellow 18k promptly it might make sense to call ATC, but I'm
not sure what real purpose it serves other than meeting some FAR on
reporting youself appropriately and that need might be better served
through some other means than a radio call. Secondly, I'm not sure why
you'd hang out above 18k long enough to make the call before decending
via spoilers, but I guess it could happen. I think I'd be too busy
flying the airplane.

The airmanship point bears repeating in this case and in general.
Whenever you are flying near a limit (controlled airspace, Vne, severe
weather, terrain!) you need to exercise extra caution and presume that
conditions outside your control (lift, sink, gusts) could conspire
against you in the least favorable possible ways. I have seen many
people fly under these circumstances assuming that those conditions
will remain within (or close to) the ranges they have personally
experienced - I think it is prudent to assume something much less
favorable and keep margins appropriate to those assumptions. This
applies as much to assumptions about expected sink on final glide and
it does to assumptions about lift near 18,000'. One needs to be very
cautious about watching climb rate when above 17,000', particularly if
carrying any significant energy in the form of airspeed.

9B

What part of the word "mid-air" don't you understand?

Following your logic the other principals of airmanship a

5. Don't navigate.
6. Don't communicate.

This guy was already stabilized, in control and in no immediate danger
of breaking up. Although he was, in my opinion, foolish to be flying
at Vne to begin with. He could have easily contacted Reno Approach w/o
compromising his safety. I just don't get your guy's logic; apparently
it is "We don't talk to controllers under any circumstances".

Let me be very clear: entering controlled airspace w/o clearance
endangers other people's lives. PERIOD. To think that this is just
some FAR technicality that you do if you feel like it is beyond me. If
you don't think you are willing or able to follow FARs you should STAY
ON THE GROUND! Remember, this is a priviledge that can be revoked.

Tom Seim- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Oh Tom - you are such a grumpy fellow.

I've got nothing against navigating and communicating - I do it all
the time. I think most of the people on this thread feel the same way.
I just think they are irrelevant if you don't fly the airplane first
which it the number one risk factor in Dave's scenario. It's not like
18,000 is broken to overcast with aluminum even around Reno.

Secondly, if you do the math, a pullup from Vne to spoiler speed and
back down takes aboiut a minute, unless you fart around before you pop
the boards. If I'm at Vne and rising at altitude with an uncertain
flutter margin the last thing I want to do is get my chart out, find
the ATC freq, call them up, go back and forth as they sort out who I
am and, if I have a trasponder, give me and ident code so they can
find me and give me traffic advisories. I'm in all likelihood back
below 18,000' before they even can figure it all out and do anything
to help me. Simple.

Now, if you are already talking to them for some other reason or have
a transponder, then they already know where you are and have already
routed trafffic to avoid you. Believe it or not, the controllers don't
make a sport out of seeing how close the can fly traffic together, so
they'll give gliders a pretty good clearance form traffic.BUT, if you
are already talking to them it makes sense to let them know if you are
doing something unexpected. I'd just fly the airplane first because
the risk of breaking the airplane in my judgement far exceeds the risk
of a midair.

I am prepared for your next personal attack.

9B