Troubling story and some questions

Andreas Maurer wrote:

Just a technical question:
In all the gliders I've flown so far Vne is identical to spoiler speed
(read: You can extend the spoilers up to Vne).

Do there really gliders exist where the spoilers cannot be operated up
to Vne?

I wouldn't say 'cannot', but on my DG1000 the brakes are hard to get on
and off the overcenter lock at high speed. Due to wing flex I expect. Hard
enough that I have done a high speed final glide holding the brakes closed
because I couldn't get them locked. 'High speed' would be something over
100 knots.

I noticed the same thing in a Libelle 201 when I tried using the brakes
at high speed.

--
Philip Plane _____
|
---------------( )---------------
Glider pilots have no visible means of support

On Jan 9, 8:48*am, Andreas Maurer wrote:
On Tue, 8 Jan 2008 17:40:06 -0800 (PST), wrote:
Secondly, if you do the math, a pullup from Vne to spoiler speed and
back down takes aboiut a minute,

Just a technical question:
In all the gliders I've flown so far Vne is identical to spoiler speed
(read: You can extend the spoilers up to Vne).

Do there really gliders exist where the spoilers cannot be operated up
to Vne?


I think the concern is more that when you open the spoilers you load
up the wing outboard of the spoilers and might create bending moments
that would break the spar - especially above Vne. It's always a good
idea to be familiar with this part of the operating manual for the
specific sailplane type you're flying as you won't habe time to look
it up when you need to know. In any event it would be a wild ride.

9B

On Jan 8, 10:07*pm, wrote:
On Jan 8, 8:29*pm, wrote:





On Jan 8, 6:09*pm, Tony Verhulst wrote:

If you need to go into controlled airspace without permission

[CFI mode]
I fly in controlled airspace all the time and rarely get permission.
Controlled airspace does not mean that you have to talk to a controller.

Philip Plane wrote:

I noticed the same thing in a Libelle 201 when I tried using the brakes
at high speed.

Out of curiosity, do you remember the speed at which you tried that?

The fastest I've opened them to date was 70 kts. Mine's a 201 (not B
series). They opened as easily as usual (mine has a pretty fierce over
center even when stationary) but the deceleration was immediately
noticeable - I thought that wasn't bad at all for a glider thats famous
for having weak brakes!


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

On Jan 9, 12:52*pm, wrote:
On Jan 8, 10:07*pm, wrote:





On Jan 8, 8:29*pm, wrote:

On Jan 8, 6:09*pm, Tony Verhulst wrote:

If you need to go into controlled airspace without permission

[CFI mode]
I fly in controlled airspace all the time and rarely get permission.
Controlled airspace does not mean that you have to talk to a controller.
Class E airspace is controlled airspace and is the such best example..
The only uncontrolled airspace (in the U.S.) is class G airspace.

Wikipedia, though never authoritative, provides this (accurate)
description -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controlled_airspace.

[/CFI mode]

Tony V. CFI-G

Tony,

Thanks for the clarification. Clearly, I ment CLASS A controlled
airspace, vs controlled airspace. Of course, this changes absolutely
everything!

Tom

Waiter, some Lithium for my friend Tom.

Remember the original scenario. Dave finds himself at 18,200' at some
scary number of knots over Vne - IN A SPARROWHAWK. Those things weigh
like 145 pounds empty - not exactly the aircraft I want to use for
testing aeroelastic theory. He has his transponder on so ATC sees him.
He is monitoring Reno Approach so he would be aware of traffic
reporting in an area of concern to him.

So if I am Dave in that situation I'm first of all trying to not poop
in my pants. Second, I am trying to get the airspeed down quickly but
without overstresing the airplane or changing the loading in a way
that sets off flutter (a big unknown on what to do there, so more
pucker in the old sphincter). Third, I am getting the boards out as
soon as I feel safe to do so and pushing back over for the quickest
decent I can safely manage. The whole operation is maybe 45 seconds of
pure adrenaline.

So somewhere in here Dave gets to stop thinking aviate and start
thinking navigate. The stop at navigate is short (Dave knows where he
is). So now he can move on to communicate. So the relevant question
is, where does Dave make the transition from aviate through navigate
up to communicate? All while still holding his bowels. Is it the
instant he gets below Vne? While he's still maybe 30 degrees nose up
and losing airspeed? Before the zero-G push over, popping the
divebreaks for the 45-degree decent to 18,000' and below? Is is during
the decent? Is it before the pullup? Or does Dave just push forward on
the stick to get immediately back below below 18k, poop his pants, and
wait for permission to save his own life (that is, should he jump
straight to communicate - probably in falsetto).

One could also make the argument that Dave pull up, get down to a
reasonable speed, pause at 19k, call ATC and have a conversation about
what to do before going back into aviate mode for a more sedate decent
where multitasking is again fully operating for him. That might be a
reasonable course of action, but he will be spending a lot more time
in the Class A and there is probably a question about how long it
takes ATC to sort him out. If he didn't have his transponder on it
might take some time to sort out exactly where he is relative to other
traffic, whether or not he can maintain a constant altitude and
bearing given all the wave up/down, etc. If he didn't have his radio
on ATC then he'd have to locate the freq (if not committed to memory),
dial it up and establish contact all while farting around at 19k.

If he's got nerves of steel and the multitasking ability of a figher
jock making a radio call that's more informative than Tom's self-
described, micro-burst, "I'm busy" would be in order right in the
middle of the highest workload part, but I for one would give him
credit for landing with clean trousers.

Thanks for sharing with us Dave.

9B- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Ok, very funny - you are obviously not trying to make a serious post
here and you should be ignored. Fine, you get your wish. Hopefully no
one else takes anything you say seriously as there are consequences,
some extreme.

Tom- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text

Tom,

There's are several serious points in there - may be too subtle for a
guy who is sometimes right but never uncertain.

Honestly, I thought it was pretty arrogant of you to assert so
stridently what the situation was in the cockpit for Dave and what he
should or shouldn't have done with respect to flying the airplane
versus using the radio. I also thought your choice of adjectives
("neglegent" for instance) was particularly offensive. Finally, you
style of argument where you distort what others say, take ideas out of
context and personally attack anyone who you think might disagree with
you is reminiscent of a precocious 12 year old boy with poor impulse
control.

I also think your advice, and particularly the style in which you give
it doesn't advance the cause of safety.When people see the world in
such sharp contrast and adhere to fixed procedures or slogans at the
expense of thinking and adapting the the situation - that's when
extremely bad things happen.

At least one purpose of this forum is to share the types of incidents
that Dave experienced so we can all think about them, discuss them and
learn. The "you're all knuckleheads let me tell what the only right
answer is" doesn't encourage an open exchange at all.

I thought a little humor might allow you to open up your thinking and
see things from a different perspective - my mistake.

- Andy

I don't understand why the FAA uses the term "controlled" when it
isn't controlled at all (except in the most legalistic sense). Worse,
it creates confusion w/pilots. I know the difference, but when I say
"controlled" I mean "actively controlled".


No argument from me - it was a stupid choice of terms. Not a month goes
by where I don't have to "re-educate" a pilot during a BFR about what
controlled airspace really means.

Tom, I know that you think that I was being pedantic. I'm sorry. I did
know that you *meant* class A airspace but you miss-used the term. And,
given the number of students here and the controlled airspace
terminology confusion, I thought that the correction was appropriate. YMMV.

Tony V. LS6-b "6N"

Tony Verhulst wrote:

No argument from me - it was a stupid choice of terms. Not a month goes
by where I don't have to "re-educate" a pilot during a BFR about what
controlled airspace really means.

Actually, the term is absolutely correct and not a stupid choice at all.
In class E airspace there is IFR traffic on an IFR clearance. So that
airspace *is* controlled. For IFR traffic, anyway.

The confusion is that some pilots say "controlled" when they actually
mean "with ATC provided separation".

On Jan 8, 2:26*pm, wrote:
What part of the word "mid-air" don't you understand?

Dang, that's where I should have cooked up some popcorn. Back in the
day, who knows, maybe a hockey game would break out?

Phrases of the form "What part of [x, y, or z] don't you
understand..." hold such an intense presumption of ignorance that they
tend to valance all subsequent exchange. Very rarely will anything
constructive follow.

Thanks, Bob K.

On Wed, 9 Jan 2008 11:59:29 -0800 (PST), wrote:


I think the concern is more that when you open the spoilers you load
up the wing outboard of the spoilers and might create bending moments
that would break the spar - especially above Vne.

Never.
As long as you don't pull really high g-loads (as it was the case in
that Nimbus 4 crash), this is not going to happen.


It's always a good
idea to be familiar with this part of the operating manual for the
specific sailplane type you're flying as you won't habe time to look
it up when you need to know. In any event it would be a wild ride.

This is why I asked - so far I haven't met a glider yet whose POH
didn't allow airbrake extension up to Vne.


Bye
Andreas

On Jan 9, 4:49*pm, Andreas Maurer wrote:
...so far I haven't met a glider yet whose POH
didn't allow airbrake extension up to Vne.

So far, I've never owned a glider that had a POH. Or airbrakes.