"Vanishing American Air Superiority"

"Ken S. Tucker" wrote in message
...

I was told the Nazi's could have easily taken England, no sweat.

Without a doubt, but they couldn't get there...

Now if you can work out a way to get them there, with everything intact and
a reasonable fuel and ammunition supply, they'd win.

But, to paraphrase a long dead admiral, they cannot come by sea...

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

On Mar 17, 10:45 am, "William Black"
wrote:
"Ken S. Tucker" wrote in ...

I was told the Nazi's could have easily taken England, no sweat.
Ken

Without a doubt, but they couldn't get there...
Now if you can work out a way to get them there, with everything intact and
a reasonable fuel and ammunition supply, they'd win.
But, to paraphrase a long dead admiral, they cannot come by sea...
Mr. Black

I won't play what if, instead Hitlers little nazi history bible
directed him
to attack the commies, (for english sake), and follow frozen Nappy.
Ken

"Ken S. Tucker" wrote in message
...
On Mar 17, 10:45 am, "William Black"
wrote:
"Ken S. Tucker" wrote in
...

I was told the Nazi's could have easily taken England, no sweat.
Ken

Without a doubt, but they couldn't get there...
Now if you can work out a way to get them there, with everything intact
and
a reasonable fuel and ammunition supply, they'd win.
But, to paraphrase a long dead admiral, they cannot come by sea...
Mr. Black

I won't play what if, instead Hitlers little nazi history bible
directed him
to attack the commies, (for english sake), and follow frozen Nappy.
Ken


Erm - thats what he did , see Operation Barbarossa.

Keith

"Jack Linthicum" wrote in message
...
On Mar 17, 10:27 am, Chris wrote:
On Mar 17, 7:38 am, Jim Wilkins wrote:

In the presence of U-Boote how would British subs communicate that
they were friendly to attacking British destroyers?

They wouldn't be able to. However, it is very unlikely that the
British destroyers would be worrying that much about U-boats. Their
best defense against U-boats would be speed: by moving fast (which
they will want to do anyway to avoid all those Luftwaffe planes, to
find and bring to battle the KM forces, and even to tip over the
invasion barges with their bow waves) they won't give submerged
submarines much of a chance to get into position: unless the submarine
is already in the correct position they won't be able to engage.

The KM invasion forces, on the other hand, will be tied to the 3-4
knot invasion barges, so there will be a lot of slow, tempting targets
for the RN submarines.

Chris Manteuffel

Also, as in the situation during the Battle of Britain, the idea is to
kill Germans and if the British submarines take losses it is for the
final result, repelling the German invasion. The submarines can sink
or disable the tow boats.


Actually submarines would be a poor choice for that role. My betting is that
the RN submarines would be skulking around German ports looking
for targets of opportunity. There were plenty of light forces operating out
of channel ports that could kill tow boats and barges.

Keith

On Mar 17, 3:08*pm, "Keith Willshaw"
wrote:
"Jack Linthicum" wrote in message

...



On Mar 17, 10:27 am, Chris wrote:
On Mar 17, 7:38 am, Jim Wilkins wrote:

In the presence of U-Boote how would British subs communicate that
they were friendly to attacking British destroyers?

They wouldn't be able to. However, it is very unlikely that the
British destroyers would be worrying that much about U-boats. Their
best defense against U-boats would be speed: by moving fast (which
they will want to do anyway to avoid all those Luftwaffe planes, to
find and bring to battle the KM forces, and even to tip over the
invasion barges with their bow waves) they won't give submerged
submarines much of a chance to get into position: unless the submarine
is already in the correct position they won't be able to engage.

The KM invasion forces, on the other hand, will be tied to the 3-4
knot invasion barges, so there will be a lot of slow, tempting targets
for the RN submarines.

Chris Manteuffel

Also, as in the situation during the Battle of Britain, the idea is to
kill Germans and if the British submarines take losses it is for the
final result, repelling the German invasion. The submarines can sink
or disable the tow boats.

Actually submarines would be a poor choice for that role. My betting is that
the RN submarines would be skulking around German ports looking
for targets of opportunity. There were plenty of light forces operating out
of channel ports that could kill tow boats and barges.

Keith

Nothing like a torpedo launcher at the opening in the nets.

On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 07:27:50 -0700 (PDT), Chris
wrote:

On Mar 17, 7:38*am, Jim Wilkins wrote:

In the presence of U-Boote how would British subs communicate that
they were friendly to attacking British destroyers?

They wouldn't be able to. However, it is very unlikely that the
British destroyers would be worrying that much about U-boats. Their
best defense against U-boats would be speed: by moving fast (which
they will want to do anyway to avoid all those Luftwaffe planes, to
find and bring to battle the KM forces, and even to tip over the
invasion barges with their bow waves) they won't give submerged
submarines much of a chance to get into position: unless the submarine
is already in the correct position they won't be able to engage.

The KM invasion forces, on the other hand, will be tied to the 3-4
knot invasion barges, so there will be a lot of slow, tempting targets
for the RN submarines.

They'll have to surface and use their guns. Not much of the
invasion fleet was big enough to torpedo. The RN did not muster
subs in or near the channel, they had better use for them
elsewhere.

Peter Skelton

On Mar 17, 11:56 am, "Keith Willshaw"
wrote:
"Ken S. Tucker" wrote in ...



On Mar 17, 10:45 am, "William Black"
wrote:
"Ken S. Tucker" wrote in
...

I was told the Nazi's could have easily taken England, no sweat.
Ken

Without a doubt, but they couldn't get there...
Now if you can work out a way to get them there, with everything intact
and
a reasonable fuel and ammunition supply, they'd win.
But, to paraphrase a long dead admiral, they cannot come by sea...
Mr. Black

I won't play what if, instead Hitlers little nazi history bible
directed him
to attack the commies, (for english sake), and follow frozen Nappy.
Ken

Erm - thats what he did , see Operation Barbarossa.
Keith

You know, to this day, I don't know whether Hitler sucker punched
Stalin or Stalin suckered him in and unloaded a bunch of army's he
didn't want.
Anyway, overall the Brits nailed Nazi's using airforce, and Stalin
nailed them using army's.
My remark about the Brit's is from Speers accounts, they were
able to burn cities as good as an A-bomb, and did create a 2nd
front, in the air.
Ken

On Mar 17, 4:31*pm, Peter Skelton wrote:
On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 07:27:50 -0700 (PDT), Chris



wrote:
On Mar 17, 7:38 am, Jim Wilkins wrote:

In the presence of U-Boote how would British subs communicate that
they were friendly to attacking British destroyers?

They wouldn't be able to. However, it is very unlikely that the
British destroyers would be worrying that much about U-boats. Their
best defense against U-boats would be speed: by moving fast (which
they will want to do anyway to avoid all those Luftwaffe planes, to
find and bring to battle the KM forces, and even to tip over the
invasion barges with their bow waves) they won't give submerged
submarines much of a chance to get into position: unless the submarine
is already in the correct position they won't be able to engage.

The KM invasion forces, on the other hand, will be tied to the 3-4
knot invasion barges, so there will be a lot of slow, tempting targets
for the RN submarines.

They'll have to surface and use their guns. Not much of the
invasion fleet was big enough to torpedo. The RN did not muster
subs in or near the channel, they had better use for them
elsewhere.

Peter Skelton

I still say a spread across the opening in the anti-submarine nets as
the first tow boat emerges would put a major bend in the German desire
to finish the game. Just make an explosive noise somewhere a head of
the bulk of the force.

On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 16:31:00 -0400, Peter Skelton
wrote:

On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 07:27:50 -0700 (PDT), Chris
wrote:

On Mar 17, 7:38*am, Jim Wilkins wrote:

In the presence of U-Boote how would British subs communicate that
they were friendly to attacking British destroyers?

They wouldn't be able to. However, it is very unlikely that the
British destroyers would be worrying that much about U-boats. Their
best defense against U-boats would be speed: by moving fast (which
they will want to do anyway to avoid all those Luftwaffe planes, to
find and bring to battle the KM forces, and even to tip over the
invasion barges with their bow waves) they won't give submerged
submarines much of a chance to get into position: unless the submarine
is already in the correct position they won't be able to engage.

The KM invasion forces, on the other hand, will be tied to the 3-4
knot invasion barges, so there will be a lot of slow, tempting targets
for the RN submarines.

They'll have to surface and use their guns. Not much of the
invasion fleet was big enough to torpedo. The RN did not muster
subs in or near the channel, they had better use for them
elsewhere.

Peter Skelton

Wouldn't it take a particularly stupid admiral to try and use subs as
an invasion barge escort?

Also, while barges were a critical lift, there were also a fair number
of larger, coastal trade vessels that would have to be pressed into
service to carry the heavy stuff, including supplies of fuel. These
would have made fine targets for RN subs.

The U-Boat force would not be messing around with barges in the
Channel. They'd be setting up to intercept the Home Fleet as it came
south to "welcome" the invasion force.

Remember, too, the old saw: Amatuers study tactics; professionals
study logistics. There is no way the KM could have protected the sea
lift necessary to make any invasion possible.

Of course we see these things with the aid of 20/20 hindsight. At the
time I suspect there was more "fog of war" involved in decision
making.

On Mar 17, 4:31*pm, Peter Skelton wrote:

They'll have to surface and use their guns. Not much of the
invasion fleet was big enough to torpedo.

The barges + tugs certainly weren't, but there would be a fair number
of coasters and the like that would certainly detonate a torpedo if
hit. And in a Sealion scenario, I can see putting everything the RN
has out there for the fight. No sense in giving the Germans even a 1%
chance of success...

Chris Manteuffel