"Vanishing American Air Superiority"

Ken S. Tucker wrote:

On Mar 18, 12:30 pm, frank wrote:

On Mar 18, 1:47 pm, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote:




On Mar 18, 12:36 am, "William Black"
wrote:

"Ken S. Tucker" wrote in ...

I think the source is reliable, my Old Boy was a WW2 vet spook who
had more access to info than any historian will ever get, and
explained
it to me.

My my, someone on the BIGOT list and who had access to ULTRA.
That's about a dozen people below general officer rank.
Shouldn't be too hard to identify him.
That said, I don't want to play 'what if' games, ok.

Not sure about the "BIGOT" acronym, anyway he had a great job in
RCAF, as a "de-briefer". What that entailed was a bit complicated.
When RCAF personel returned from overseas he was allowed 1 week
to de-brief and calm them down enough to return them to civilian life.
He had to 'pump' them for information which I imagine a lot of men
were reluctant to relate, using cigarettes, booze and girls to get
them
chatty.
Funny he was highly qualified, before the war he was a gangster,
had a speak-easy in Winnipeg, and hustled booze and fish to
Chicago's Moran gang mainly, you know how kids are.

After 2-3 years he wrote a stack of reports that would fill a filing
cabinet, probably still classified.
He had access to everything, as you can imagine, but the only
person he'd talk to about it was me, and only at the cottage we
built when we were alone, after drinking he'd loosen up a bit, but
he was always careful about what he said.
It was the analysis ability that he sifted for circulation that I
found
interesting.

But I'll let you in on a secret, the Brits had thousands of cannons
after
Dunkirk, available for Nazi photo recon, made of wood logs, that's all
the Brits had was bluff, but I think it was good in any case, the
croats
figured it was real.

Have you considered reading a book?

Which book did you read?

The Brits, had a few rifles left after Dunkirk, 2 or 3.
Paint a few hundred barges black and gliders too, move out at 10 or
11 pm, and by 5 am the king is being raped in the ass by Nazi's.
As I said, no sweat.

Aren't we forgetting someone?
This being a naval group and all...

The RN was pretty much useless, recall Pearl Harbor, suppose the
Nazi's
float a bunch of cheap boats, the RN responds and the Luftwaff
would've put
a lot of iron in the channel.
Barges are ultra cheap, especially when they're empty.

Oh yes, and assuming they do land. How on earth do they get over the
Military Canal in a night?

40 miles = 8 x 5, how long is a night?
(please don't tell me I need to prove math).

William Black

Regards
Ken

Ken, you have no idea what you are talking about. Sorry. Go read a
book. You know there are books written on this subject.


Well Frank, don't crap in your Depends Diaper, but you should know
books are written to be sold, you'd be far better off discussing war
with people who were actually involved in it, as you clearly have not
been, you have no clue about the problems.
It seems to be a habit of the US to dump it's vets on a tarmack and
tell them to go home, with zilch debriefing, and deal with
psychotrauma
on their own, following combat.
At least the WW2 RCAF had the class to get fella's talking and opening
up about their experiences and also LEARN from them, while at the same
time assisting psychotrauma reduction.
LOL, while Frank was reading comic books glorifying WW2, I was having
discussions with combat veterans.
Ken

Hi Ken! Are you still dating Charlene?


--
Each person has an individual responsibility to determine if his actions are moral, and
no government or army may ever take that responsibility away.

definition:
murder - the unjustifiable and intentional killing of people, NO EXCEPTIONS.

In message
, Ken
S. Tucker writes
On Mar 17, 3:38 pm, "Paul J. Adam"
wrote:
I think the source is reliable, my Old Boy was a WW2 vet spook who
had more access to info than any historian will ever get, and
explained
it to me.

That's one of maybe a dozen people, then. Why not just tell us his name?

But I'll let you in on a secret, the Brits had thousands of cannons
after
Dunkirk, available for Nazi photo recon, made of wood logs, that's all
the Brits had was bluff, but I think it was good in any case, the
croats
figured it was real.

Croats? Whiskey tango foxtrot, interrogative?

We certainly had a big deception plan going in Kent... in 1944 to create
FUSAG and keep the Germans waiting in the Pas de Calais.

As far as artillery went, *immediately* after Dunkirk - on 8 June - we
had about 400 tanks, 420 field guns and 163 medium and heavy guns
*immediately* available for use. We had fifteen infantry and one
armoured division in being.

Through June, the Navy brought back to the UK about another 200,000
troops, and some of their artillery and vehicles. (Common myth - Dunkirk
was by no means the end of the fighting in France)

The Brits, had a few rifles left after Dunkirk, 2 or 3.

About 70,000 after the Army's needs had been met.

Paint a few hundred barges black and gliders too, move out at 10 or
11 pm, and by 5 am the king is being raped in the ass by Nazi's.

Move out at 10pm in your three-knot barges, and by 5am you're not even
half-way across the Channel.

You have, however, met and felt the fire of the Auxiliary Patrol, and by
this point you're seeing destroyers by the dozen... and none of them
German.


I think you need to re-examine the credentials of your Old Boy. He
wasn't related to Baron Castleshortt VC, was he?




--
He thinks too much, such men are dangerous.

Paul J. Adam

In message
, Ken
S. Tucker writes
On Mar 18, 12:36 am, "William Black"
wrote:
Aren't we forgetting someone?
This being a naval group and all...

The RN was pretty much useless, recall Pearl Harbor,

Ships sunk in port on a Sunday. Relates to ships at night, mixed in with
your invasion force, how?
suppose the
Nazi's
float a bunch of cheap boats, the RN responds and the Luftwaff
would've put
a lot of iron in the channel.

At night?

The Luftwaffe was pretty poor at sinking ships in 1940. They got four of
forty destroyers at Dunkirk over days, when they were stopped to take on
troops: here they have to sink forty destroyers very fast, at night,
while they're making thirty knots.

Curiously, the RN kept attacking the invasion ports, and the Luftwaffe
couldn't stop them.

Barges are ultra cheap, especially when they're empty.

Yet the Germans didn't have enough, even before they started losing them
to bombing and shelling.

Oh yes, and assuming they do land. How on earth do they get over the
Military Canal in a night?

40 miles = 8 x 5, how long is a night?
(please don't tell me I need to prove math).

So, what, they're swimming? No armour, no artillery, no vehicles, no
supplies beyond what they can swim across with?

Going to make the rest of their invasion of Britain interesting...

--
He thinks too much, such men are dangerous.

Paul J. Adam

On Mar 18, 4:32*pm, "Paul J. Adam"
wrote:
In message
, Ken
S. Tucker writes

On Mar 17, 3:38 pm, "Paul J. Adam"
wrote:
I think the source is reliable, my Old Boy was a WW2 vet spook who
had more access to info than any historian will ever get, and
explained
it to me.

That's one of maybe a dozen people, then. Why not just tell us his name?

But I'll let you in on a secret, the Brits had thousands of cannons
after
Dunkirk, available for Nazi photo recon, made of wood logs, that's all
the Brits had was bluff, but I think it was good in any case, the
croats
figured it was real.

Croats? Whiskey tango foxtrot, interrogative?

We certainly had a big deception plan going in Kent... in 1944 to create
FUSAG and keep the Germans waiting in the Pas de Calais.

As far as artillery went, *immediately* after Dunkirk - on 8 June - we
had about 400 tanks, 420 field guns and 163 medium and heavy guns
*immediately* available for use. We had fifteen infantry and one
armoured division in being.

Through June, the Navy brought back to the UK about another 200,000
troops, and some of their artillery and vehicles. (Common myth - Dunkirk
was by no means the end of the fighting in France)



The Brits, had a few rifles left after Dunkirk, 2 or 3.

About 70,000 after the Army's needs had been met.

Paint a few hundred barges black and gliders too, move out at 10 or
11 pm, and by 5 am the king is being raped in the ass by Nazi's.

Move out at 10pm in your three-knot barges, and by 5am you're not even
half-way across the Channel.

You have, however, met and felt the fire of the Auxiliary Patrol, and by
this point you're seeing destroyers by the dozen... and none of them
German.

I think you need to re-examine the credentials of your Old Boy. He
wasn't related to Baron Castleshortt VC, was he?

--
He thinks too much, such men are dangerous.

Paul J. Adam

Try Operation Fortitude

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Fortitude

the reading list,

2. ^ Operation Fortitude website

http://www.normandiememoire.com/NM60...sto2_p5_gb.htm

* Howard, Sir Michael, Strategic Deception (British Intelligence
in the Second World War, Volume 5) (Cambridge University Press, New
York, 1990)

* Holt, Thaddeus, The Deceivers: Allied Military Deception in the
Second World War (Scribner, New York, 2004)

* Harris, Tomas, "GARBO, The Spy Who Saved D-Day", Richmond,
Surrey, England: Public Record Office, 2000, ISBN 1-873162-81-2

* Hesketh, Roger, "Fortitude", Overlook Press, New York, 2000,
ISBN 1-58567-075-8

* Latimer, Jon, "Deception in War", Overlook Press, New York, 2001
ISBN 978-1585673810

On Mar 18, 2:47*pm, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote:

The RN was pretty much useless, recall Pearl Harbor, suppose the

This feels like I'm being punked, but let's go ahead and treat this as
a real argument.

If you are trying to say that airplanes will surely sink the RN and
allow Sealion to continue because a lot of ships were sunk at Pearl
Harbor, then your argument fails.

The Imperial Japanese Navy attacked Pearl Harbor. They would not be
involved in a Sealion invasion.

What you need to understand is that the IJN was the best in the world
at sinking ships at this time. The period from before Pearl Harbor
through to the middle of the Guadalcanal campaign or so is their high
water mark. Saying that because the Japanese in that time frame could
sink a lot of ships in a few hours (especially when they are
obligingly stationary in port during daylight) therefore the Germans
could to (at night while steaming at 20+ knots) is like saying that
because LeBron James and the Cleveland Cavaliers beat the Lakers, me
and my friend's who play pick-up basketball will too (even if we give
them a 15 point head start) .

Let's do a quick comparison of the Luftwaffe (and this is mighty
Fliegerkorps X a year later, specially trained for attacking ships-
but not in September 1940) and the IJN. During the evacuation of Crete
HMS Fiji and HMS Gloucester operated inside Luftwaffe air range for
over two days, with no fighter support, and were only sunk when the
two cruisers ran out of AA ammo. During Operation C the Kido Butai's
dive bombers (the torpedo bombers held their weapons, hoping for
better targets) put HMS Cornwall and HMS Dorsetshire both underwater
within a half-hour of the first bomb falling.

That is the level of difference we are talking about between the
Japanese and the Germans: an order of magnitude in effectiveness. And
then factor in the difference between hitting ships that are moving
and hitting ships that are berthed in port, and I begin to suspect
that you are not fully serious with this argument.

Nazi's
float a bunch of cheap boats, the RN responds and the Luftwaffe

Were would they get these cheap boats? They didn't have enough to
carry their invasion force, even by essentially ending all river
traffic and causing significant economic dislocation (in particular,
coal transport was seriously curtailed, meaning that steel production
was way down- see Tooze, _Wages of Destruction_). Barges were critical
for German economic activity, and they didn't have enough (largely
because Hitler had focused on other things, allowing most of the
transportation infrastructure to degrade severely- the Reichsbahn
suffered quite badly too).

I am leaning towards the conclusion that this argument of yours must
be some sort of elaborate hoax, though I am at a loss as to the
purpose.

Chris Manteuffel

On Mar 18, 5:59*pm, Chris wrote:
On Mar 18, 2:47*pm, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote:

The RN was pretty much useless, recall Pearl Harbor, suppose the

This feels like I'm being punked, but let's go ahead and treat this as
a real argument.

If you are trying to say that airplanes will surely sink the RN and
allow Sealion to continue because a lot of ships were sunk at Pearl
Harbor, then your argument fails.

The Imperial Japanese Navy attacked Pearl Harbor. They would not be
involved in a Sealion invasion.

What you need to understand is that the IJN was the best in the world
at sinking ships at this time. The period from before Pearl Harbor
through to the middle of the Guadalcanal campaign or so is their high
water mark. Saying that because the Japanese in that time frame could
sink a lot of ships in a few hours (especially when they are
obligingly stationary in port during daylight) therefore the Germans
could to (at night while steaming at 20+ knots) *is like saying that
because LeBron James and the Cleveland Cavaliers beat the Lakers, me
and my friend's who play pick-up basketball will too (even if we give
them a 15 point head start) .

Let's do a quick comparison of the Luftwaffe (and this is mighty
Fliegerkorps X a year later, specially trained for attacking ships-
but not in September 1940) and the IJN. During the evacuation of Crete
HMS Fiji and HMS Gloucester operated inside Luftwaffe air range for
over two days, with no fighter support, and were only sunk when the
two cruisers ran out of AA ammo. During Operation C the Kido Butai's
dive bombers (the torpedo bombers held their weapons, hoping for
better targets) put HMS Cornwall and HMS Dorsetshire both underwater
within a half-hour of the first bomb falling.

That is the level of difference we are talking about between the
Japanese and the Germans: an order of magnitude in effectiveness. And
then factor in the difference between hitting ships that are moving
and hitting ships that are berthed in port, and I begin to suspect
that you are not fully serious with this argument.

Nazi's
float a bunch of cheap boats, the RN responds and the Luftwaffe

Were would they get these cheap boats? They didn't have enough to
carry their invasion force, even by essentially ending all river
traffic and causing significant economic dislocation (in particular,
coal transport was seriously curtailed, meaning that steel production
was way down- see Tooze, _Wages of Destruction_). Barges were critical
for German economic activity, and they didn't have enough (largely
because Hitler had focused on other things, allowing most of the
transportation infrastructure to degrade severely- the Reichsbahn
suffered quite badly too).

I am leaning towards the conclusion that this argument of yours must
be some sort of elaborate hoax, though I am at a loss as to the
purpose.

Chris Manteuffel

At the far edge of dreamland the Germans have an attache in Shanghai
in 1937 when the Japanese invade in their landing craft with bow
doors. By some miracle this attache's report gets to Hitler who sees
these wonder craft as the answer to an invasion of England. He has
10,000 built in Norway or Poland and when the time comes for See Lowe
they have all been burned during the respective invasions of Norway
and Poland.

William Black wrote:

"Alexander" wrote in message
...

You are dreaming. Very few War Historians believe that the English
Lion would not succumb in the event Germany had turned to England
rather then Russia.

How do they get there to inflict this defeat?

And even if they do get to England how does the German Army resupply?
The Royal Navy would find sinking unarmed merchant ships and barges in
the Channel a turkey shoot. Unlike land battles ordinary trunks on
ordinary roads/railways cannot be used.

Andrew Swallow

Paul J. Adam wrote:
In message
, Ken
S. Tucker writes
On Mar 17, 3:38 pm, "Paul J. Adam"
wrote:
I think the source is reliable, my Old Boy was a WW2 vet spook who
had more access to info than any historian will ever get, and
explained
it to me.

That's one of maybe a dozen people, then. Why not just tell us his name?

But I'll let you in on a secret, the Brits had thousands of cannons
after
Dunkirk, available for Nazi photo recon, made of wood logs, that's all
the Brits had was bluff, but I think it was good in any case, the
croats
figured it was real.

Croats? Whiskey tango foxtrot, interrogative?

We certainly had a big deception plan going in Kent... in 1944 to create
FUSAG and keep the Germans waiting in the Pas de Calais.

As far as artillery went, *immediately* after Dunkirk - on 8 June - we
had about 400 tanks, 420 field guns and 163 medium and heavy guns
*immediately* available for use. We had fifteen infantry and one
armoured division in being.

Through June, the Navy brought back to the UK about another 200,000
troops, and some of their artillery and vehicles. (Common myth - Dunkirk
was by no means the end of the fighting in France)

The Brits, had a few rifles left after Dunkirk, 2 or 3.

About 70,000 after the Army's needs had been met.

Paint a few hundred barges black and gliders too, move out at 10 or
11 pm, and by 5 am the king is being raped in the ass by Nazi's.

Move out at 10pm in your three-knot barges, and by 5am you're not even
half-way across the Channel.

You have, however, met and felt the fire of the Auxiliary Patrol, and by
this point you're seeing destroyers by the dozen... and none of them
German.


I think you need to re-examine the credentials of your Old Boy. He
wasn't related to Baron Castleshortt VC, was he?



Lord Haw Haw comes to mind.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

Paul J. Adam wrote:
{snip}


I think you need to re-examine the credentials of your Old Boy. He
wasn't related to Baron Castleshortt VC, was he?

I suspect these believes are coming from stories of the Home Guard
training with pikes and the German planners ignoring the Royal
Navy. The German Army was not used to river crossings being
impeded by floating super tanks (several big guns).

Andrew Swallow

Andrew Swallow wrote:
William Black wrote:

"Alexander" wrote in message
...

You are dreaming. Very few War Historians believe that the English
Lion would not succumb in the event Germany had turned to England
rather then Russia.

How do they get there to inflict this defeat?

And even if they do get to England how does the German Army resupply?
The Royal Navy would find sinking unarmed merchant ships and barges in
the Channel a turkey shoot. Unlike land battles ordinary trunks on
ordinary roads/railways cannot be used.

Andrew Swallow

That and the best Nazi plans never had very many men in England at
D+1 or the ability to immediately replenish ammunition expenditures. Men
with empty magazines tend to be unable to fire their weapons. On the
other hand the British had lots of ammunition and the advantage of
mobility. The RAF and Luftwaffe probably wouldn't have much effect in
the immediate area since they'd be a tad busy discussing things at altitude.

Had the Nazis been able to hold a piece of property for any length of
time they would have gone hungry, short of munitions and no way to retreat.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired