"Vanishing American Air Superiority"

Paul J. Adam wrote:
In message
, Ken
S. Tucker writes
On Mar 18, 12:36 am, "William Black"
wrote:
Aren't we forgetting someone?
This being a naval group and all...

The RN was pretty much useless, recall Pearl Harbor,

Ships sunk in port on a Sunday. Relates to ships at night, mixed in with
your invasion force, how?
suppose the
Nazi's
float a bunch of cheap boats, the RN responds and the Luftwaff
would've put
a lot of iron in the channel.

At night?

The Luftwaffe was pretty poor at sinking ships in 1940.

Stukas did a very credible job.

They got four of
forty destroyers at Dunkirk over days, when they were stopped to take on
troops: here they have to sink forty destroyers very fast, at night,
while they're making thirty knots.

I would more attribute that to your air cover. Ships then as now were
sitting ducks. Or did you forget massive air battles at the Coral Sea,
Wake Island, Midway Island etc. Japanese aircraft did a real job at
Pearl harbor on both anchored ships and fast moving destroyers in the
outer harbor at Pearl Harbor. You also seem to forget that Hitler
himself ordered a stand down at Dunkirk allowing you to get off that
beach. His troops could well have slaughtered the English and French
troops to a man. Hell, even Argentina made some good scores against the
mighty Royal Navy.

Curiously, the RN kept attacking the invasion ports, and the Luftwaffe
couldn't stop them.

Barges are ultra cheap, especially when they're empty.

Yet the Germans didn't have enough, even before they started losing them
to bombing and shelling.

Oh yes, and assuming they do land. How on earth do they get over the
Military Canal in a night?

40 miles = 8 x 5, how long is a night?
(please don't tell me I need to prove math).

So, what, they're swimming? No armour, no artillery, no vehicles, no
supplies beyond what they can swim across with?

Going to make the rest of their invasion of Britain interesting...

Paul J. Adam wrote:
In message
, Ken
S. Tucker writes
On Mar 18, 12:36 am, "William Black"
wrote:
Aren't we forgetting someone?
This being a naval group and all...

The RN was pretty much useless, recall Pearl Harbor,

Ships sunk in port on a Sunday. Relates to ships at night, mixed in with
your invasion force, how?
suppose the
Nazi's
float a bunch of cheap boats, the RN responds and the Luftwaff
would've put
a lot of iron in the channel.

At night?

The Luftwaffe was pretty poor at sinking ships in 1940. They got four of
forty destroyers at Dunkirk over days, when they were stopped to take on
troops: here they have to sink forty destroyers very fast, at night,
while they're making thirty knots.

Curiously, the RN kept attacking the invasion ports, and the Luftwaffe
couldn't stop them.

Barges are ultra cheap, especially when they're empty.

Yet the Germans didn't have enough, even before they started losing them
to bombing and shelling.

Oh yes, and assuming they do land. How on earth do they get over the
Military Canal in a night?

40 miles = 8 x 5, how long is a night?
(please don't tell me I need to prove math).

So, what, they're swimming? No armour, no artillery, no vehicles, no
supplies beyond what they can swim across with?

Going to make the rest of their invasion of Britain interesting...

Bottom line is that the Germans would have figured a very effective way
if that had been their goal. Face it.. You people started 2 wars against
Germany, which if we had not interfered would have kicked your asses
bloody. For Christs sake, learn your lesson and don't start any more
damned wars. Same goes for us.

Chris wrote:
On Mar 18, 2:47 pm, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote:

The RN was pretty much useless, recall Pearl Harbor, suppose the

This feels like I'm being punked, but let's go ahead and treat this as
a real argument.

If you are trying to say that airplanes will surely sink the RN and
allow Sealion to continue because a lot of ships were sunk at Pearl
Harbor, then your argument fails.

The Imperial Japanese Navy attacked Pearl Harbor. They would not be
involved in a Sealion invasion.

What you need to understand is that the IJN was the best in the world
at sinking ships at this time. The period from before Pearl Harbor
through to the middle of the Guadalcanal campaign or so is their high
water mark. Saying that because the Japanese in that time frame could
sink a lot of ships in a few hours (especially when they are
obligingly stationary in port during daylight) therefore the Germans
could to (at night while steaming at 20+ knots) is like saying that
because LeBron James and the Cleveland Cavaliers beat the Lakers, me
and my friend's who play pick-up basketball will too (even if we give
them a 15 point head start) .

Let's do a quick comparison of the Luftwaffe (and this is mighty
Fliegerkorps X a year later, specially trained for attacking ships-
but not in September 1940) and the IJN. During the evacuation of Crete
HMS Fiji and HMS Gloucester operated inside Luftwaffe air range for
over two days, with no fighter support, and were only sunk when the
two cruisers ran out of AA ammo. During Operation C the Kido Butai's
dive bombers (the torpedo bombers held their weapons, hoping for
better targets) put HMS Cornwall and HMS Dorsetshire both underwater
within a half-hour of the first bomb falling.

That is the level of difference we are talking about between the
Japanese and the Germans: an order of magnitude in effectiveness. And
then factor in the difference between hitting ships that are moving
and hitting ships that are berthed in port, and I begin to suspect
that you are not fully serious with this argument.

Nazi's
float a bunch of cheap boats, the RN responds and the Luftwaffe

Were would they get these cheap boats? They didn't have enough to
carry their invasion force, even by essentially ending all river
traffic and causing significant economic dislocation (in particular,
coal transport was seriously curtailed, meaning that steel production
was way down- see Tooze, _Wages of Destruction_). Barges were critical
for German economic activity, and they didn't have enough (largely
because Hitler had focused on other things, allowing most of the
transportation infrastructure to degrade severely- the Reichsbahn
suffered quite badly too).

I am leaning towards the conclusion that this argument of yours must
be some sort of elaborate hoax, though I am at a loss as to the
purpose.

Chris Manteuffel

And here you sit in America. the country that took the P51 from a mere
thought to design and production in less then 90 days. What the Hell do
you think German Engineers could do with Hitler up their ass.? Did you
forget the massive beyond belief weapons of all kinds production of
Speer? If Germany had set its sights on England..without outside
help..England would have become toast. The limeys should thank their
lucky stars that Germany set its sights on Russia instead. England had
it very bad as being only a secondary target of Germany. England should
also be damned glad Japan brought America from a covert military
supplier to open warfare.

Keith Willshaw wrote:


"Ken S. Tucker" wrote in message
...
On Mar 17, 3:38 pm, "Paul J. Adam"
wrote:
In message
, Ken
S. Tucker writes

I was told the Nazi's could have easily taken England, no sweat.

In the same way that the Japanese could have conquered the US in five
days in 1941 if they'd only bothered to try? (Land in California,
commandeer weapons and transport from the cowardly fleeing populace,
race the bad news to Washington, impose Imperial hegemony, declare
victory while forcibly recruiting all white females between seven and
seventy for "recreational services"?)

I think whoever was telling you this, was pulling your leg so hard it's
still out of its socket, and they're still telling the story of "some
clueless guy called Tucker" who didn't just swallow the hook but took
the line, and the sinker, and tried to eat the rod as well.

I think the source is reliable, my Old Boy was a WW2 vet spook who
had more access to info than any historian will ever get, and
explained
it to me. That said, I don't want to play 'what if' games, ok.
But I'll let you in on a secret, the Brits had thousands of cannons
after
Dunkirk, available for Nazi photo recon, made of wood logs, that's all
the Brits had was bluff, but I think it was good in any case, the
croats
figured it was real.


Britain was not at war with Croatia.

The Brits, had a few rifles left after Dunkirk, 2 or 3.

Apart from those in the hands of the 11 infantry divisions and
2 armoured brigades deployed for home defense.

Those 2 or 3 rifles came in rather handy in defeating the large
Italian army that invaded Egypt


Paint a few hundred barges black and gliders too, move out at 10 or
11 pm, and by 5 am the king is being raped in the ass by Nazi's.
As I said, no sweat.

There are a few minor problems, 50+ destroyers, a couple of dozen cruisers
5 or 6 Battleships and 20 bomber squadrons would be taking turns
at shooting up those barges which would be moving at a slow
walking pace. Oops.

All sunk of course. Checkmate. Do you really take the German general
staff as being amateurs at warfare? That has long been Englands
downfall. Underestimating others and overestimating themselves.


Keith

William Black wrote:

"Alexander" wrote in message
...

You are dreaming. Very few War Historians believe that the English
Lion would not succumb in the event Germany had turned to England
rather then Russia.

How do they get there to inflict this defeat?

That has already been answered. Move on.

Andrew Swallow wrote:
William Black wrote:

"Alexander" wrote in message
...

You are dreaming. Very few War Historians believe that the English
Lion would not succumb in the event Germany had turned to England
rather then Russia.

How do they get there to inflict this defeat?

And even if they do get to England how does the German Army resupply?
The Royal Navy would find sinking unarmed merchant ships and barges in
the Channel a turkey shoot. Unlike land battles ordinary trunks on
ordinary roads/railways cannot be used.

Andrew Swallow

If the ports are over run who refuels, rearms the ships that are now
toothless. Germany do a helluva a job resupplying their troops megamiles
away in Russia. That is until American Airpower mixed with what little
airpower England had left wiped out their supply lines. Germany was
basically starving to death from 1943 onward and yet damned near turned
the tide at the battle of the bulge. With out American logistics England
and Russia were flat ****ed! Get over it. You fools made bad decisions
and we bailed you out. Now we have made some bad economic decisions and
I doubt any of you will even stir to bail us out. Of course we will turn
this around on our own as we always have in the past.

On Mar 18, 10:19*pm, Alexander wrote:

Did you
forget the massive beyond belief weapons of all kinds production of
Speer?

I know that Speer managed to produce 0 useful Type XXI submarines, and
when Germany needed to defend their own airspace, he managed the neat
trick of producing a ton of fighters that were obsolete (Me109's
certainly, and to a lesser extent FW190), and a small number of
fighters that were beyond the bleeding edge- the engines of the Me262
had such terrible reliability that the fighters weren't at all useful
for Germany. What makes you think that they could magically fix these
problems?

If Germany had set its sights on England..without outside
help..England would have become toast.

Not for at least a decade to build up a navy and air force capable of
defeating the RN and starving Britain into submission. Without US or
USSR support they would not have much hope of forcing Germany to
change their government and remove Hitler, but by the same token, he
would have no chance of winning either. It would be something similar
to two centuries ago, during the struggle with Napoleon, when Britain
needed continental allies to achieve victory, but could not be forced
out by their enemy.

Chris Manteuffel

On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 21:23:18 -0500, Don Ocean wrote:

Keith Willshaw wrote:


"Ken S. Tucker" wrote in message
...
On Mar 17, 3:38 pm, "Paul J. Adam"
wrote:
In message
,
Ken S. Tucker writes

I was told the Nazi's could have easily taken England, no sweat.

In the same way that the Japanese could have conquered the US in five
days in 1941 if they'd only bothered to try? (Land in California,
commandeer weapons and transport from the cowardly fleeing populace,
race the bad news to Washington, impose Imperial hegemony, declare
victory while forcibly recruiting all white females between seven and
seventy for "recreational services"?)

I think whoever was telling you this, was pulling your leg so hard
it's still out of its socket, and they're still telling the story of
"some clueless guy called Tucker" who didn't just swallow the hook
but took the line, and the sinker, and tried to eat the rod as well.

I think the source is reliable, my Old Boy was a WW2 vet spook who had
more access to info than any historian will ever get, and explained
it to me. That said, I don't want to play 'what if' games, ok. But
I'll let you in on a secret, the Brits had thousands of cannons after
Dunkirk, available for Nazi photo recon, made of wood logs, that's all
the Brits had was bluff, but I think it was good in any case, the
croats
figured it was real.


Britain was not at war with Croatia.

The Brits, had a few rifles left after Dunkirk, 2 or 3.

Apart from those in the hands of the 11 infantry divisions and 2
armoured brigades deployed for home defense.

Those 2 or 3 rifles came in rather handy in defeating the large Italian
army that invaded Egypt


Paint a few hundred barges black and gliders too, move out at 10 or 11
pm, and by 5 am the king is being raped in the ass by Nazi's. As I
said, no sweat.

There are a few minor problems, 50+ destroyers, a couple of dozen
cruisers 5 or 6 Battleships and 20 bomber squadrons would be taking
turns at shooting up those barges which would be moving at a slow
walking pace. Oops.

All sunk of course. Checkmate. Do you really take the German general
staff as being amateurs at warfare? That has long been Englands
downfall. Underestimating others and overestimating themselves.

Actually, for all their posturing, press releases, and post-war finger pointing
that they were the Jedi Knights and that they only lost because of the Dead Guy
That Nobody Liked, the German General Staff was pretty poor.
(Let's see - 2 World Wars, 2 losses.)
The never, ever got a handle on the idea of logistics.
Coupling this with a grasp of Industrial Economy that was below that of
Lemurs, and the overweening arrogance that was taught to them from their
first Staff School on up - I don't think it was the Brits underestimating.
There's a reason why the Germans fought in short campaigns followed by extended
periods of quiescence. They did not ever have the industrial capacity, either in manufacturing,
or, more importantly, raw materials, to make up losses while the fighting was going on.
As soon as you take on opponents that won't kindly allow you a rest - The Soviet Union, the US, and, to a lesser
extent, the British Empire, you were guaranteed to lose.
(Some of their uniforms were kinda spiffy, though)

--
Pete Stickney
Failure is not an option
It comes bundled with the system

On Mar 18, 10:05*pm, Alexander wrote:

Japanese aircraft did a real job at
Pearl harbor on both anchored ships and fast moving destroyers in the
outer harbor at Pearl Harbor.

As I already noted in another post, please don't base your ideas for
what the Germans could do based on the successes of the Japanese Navy.
The Japanese Navy was so much better than the Luftwaffe at sinking
ships that the comparison is ludicrous.

But the real question here is what the hell are you talking about with
respect to "fast moving destroyers in the outer harbor at Pearl
Harbor"? First of all, what is the "outer harbor at Pearl Harbor"?
Second of all, please name the destroyers the IJN sank at Pearl
Harbor. Then please note how many of them were moving.

I anxiously await your no doubt well researched and footnoted
response.

Chris Manteuffel

Alexander wrote:
snip


Face it.. You people started 2 wars against
Germany, which if we had not interfered would have kicked your asses
bloody. For Christs sake, learn your lesson and don't start any more
damned wars. Same goes for us.


Read a history book. Germany invaded her neighbours unprovoked at the
start of both world wars. Noting your bias against the UK and Israel I'm
sure you will find a way to blame those 2 countries anyway.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired