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"Vanishing American Air Superiority"



 
 
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  #191  
Old March 19th 10, 11:08 AM posted to rec.aviation.military,sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military.naval
Keith Willshaw[_1_]
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"Alexander" wrote in message
...
William Black wrote:

"Alexander" wrote in message
...

A determined Germany would have eaten England alive, but for massive
war materials and massive military direct aid.


Well, assuming they could get there, which they couldn't...


Are you really daft enough to believe that would always be?
That is a very short Channel.


Actually its about 300 miles long. At its narrowest its only about 22 miles
wide but that has its own problems.

The topography at its narrowest point is rather unfriendly to the invader.
Landing on the beach between Folkestone and Deal leaves you at the
foot of precipitous cliffs riddled with tunnels and batteries of guns.

Think Omaha beach x 10

If you head NE to the beaches around Deal , Sandwich and Ramsgate
you greatly increase the length of the sea crossing. Not a good idea when
your barges can only do 4 knots especially given that the tidal race in
those parts can run at 2-4 knots. Of course there is the little matter that
it brings you closer to the RN ships at Harwich, Ramsgate and Chatham

That leaves you landing on the beach between Folkestone and Rye.

This is an area the British Army had been planning to defend since
the Napoleonic wars. Apart from the fixed defenses there were gun
batteries placed back from the coast with pre-surveyed fields of fire.

There were five fully equipped infantry divisions covering this area
with another 5 and an armoured division held in reserve. The Germans
would have little or no armour or heavy guns but would be equipped
with infantry weapons and a few mountain guns and mortars. Pity
the poor soldier of the Heer short of food and ammunition trying
to cross the royal military canal under fire from 7.2" and 25 pounder
artillery into the teeth of the machine gun fire from the concrete pillboxes
on the other side.

The purpose of the home guard was NOT so much to fight the German Army
as to release regular troops from routine security tasks.


paranoid racist diatribe deleted

Keith

  #192  
Old March 19th 10, 11:14 AM posted to rec.aviation.military,sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military.naval
Alexander
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Default "Vanishing American Air Superiority"

Dan wrote:
Alexander wrote:
snip


Face it.. You people started 2 wars against
Germany, which if we had not interfered would have kicked your asses
bloody. For Christs sake, learn your lesson and don't start any more
damned wars. Same goes for us.


Read a history book. Germany invaded her neighbours unprovoked at the
start of both world wars.


Bull****. Provocation was there and it would have ended very quietly,
except for the English perfidy. Damned limeys were forever tinkering in
the business of others. No one in America wanted any part of that war.
The Idiot Wilson decided he needed some imperialism to beat Teddy
Roosevelt in the upcoming 1917 election. Even Teddy thought it was a
stupid move. It was.

Noting your bias against the UK and Israel I'm
sure you will find a way to blame those 2 countries anyway.


I lay blame where blame is due. Obviously you neglected your oxygen a
few too many times. Our business is America. Do try and remember that.
Even the US Airforce's business is America. By the way...Some of
Englands loudest critics are the English themselves. There is no true UK
anymore. Israel just told America to go **** itself. They did the same
to President Eisenhower. We do not have any need to keep destroying our
economy for the Zionist Ashkenazi Jews of Israel.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired


I can see why!
  #193  
Old March 19th 10, 11:34 AM posted to rec.aviation.military,sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military.naval
Alexander
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Chris wrote:
On Mar 18, 10:19 pm, Alexander wrote:

Did you
forget the massive beyond belief weapons of all kinds production of
Speer?


I know that Speer managed to produce 0 useful Type XXI submarines, and
when Germany needed to defend their own airspace, he managed the neat
trick of producing a ton of fighters that were obsolete (Me109's
certainly, and to a lesser extent FW190), and a small number of
fighters that were beyond the bleeding edge- the engines of the Me262
had such terrible reliability that the fighters weren't at all useful
for Germany. What makes you think that they could magically fix these
problems?


Germany was concentrating on an Armored war in the East. If the decision
had been to retain Russia as an ally, Germany would have found the where
with all to toast England. As for starving England out..Why not...That
is what England did to Germany after the Armistice in WWI. America had
no place in either war. England handed us the dirty end of the stick and
we had morons in Corporate America what war profiteered by jumping at
the chance.


If Germany had set its sights on England..without outside
help..England would have become toast.


Not for at least a decade to build up a navy and air force capable of
defeating the RN and starving Britain into submission.


England was a paper tiger as proven by the taking of Poland. Even in WWI
The English had lost the war when Germany first offered a stand down and
to return to its original borders. But oh no..Wilson had to furnish more
war materials to England and when a ship load of that got sunk...Pull
isolationist America into a European conflict for which America got
nothing but egg on its face.

Without US or
USSR support they would not have much hope of forcing Germany to
change their government and remove Hitler, but by the same token, he
would have no chance of winning either.


Actually he never planned to invade England. That is just Paranoia.
If his original plans were to invade, Germany would have been tooling up
in 1934, just like American corporate Government did. America stashed
all the steel and materials and redesigned it planes and battle fleets
in 1934. When Roosevelt finally goaded Japan into attacking us, It only
took short weeks before Fletcher class destroyers came off the assy line
by the gross. Planes also.. All designs with 1934 copyrights.

It would be something similar
to two centuries ago, during the struggle with Napoleon, when Britain
needed continental allies to achieve victory, but could not be forced
out by their enemy.

Chris Manteuffel


The English Empire started its own destruction in WWI. Its primary goal
was to pirate Germanys rich colonies. They got ****ed when the
Bolsheviks took Russia out of the equation as an ally. One bloody war
led to the next one. Bolsheviks were and are Jews by the way. The same
batch of assholes that fled Russia for Israel and are now the
assassinating settlers on Palestinian soil.
  #194  
Old March 19th 10, 11:36 AM posted to rec.aviation.military,sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military.naval
Andrew Chaplin
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Posts: 728
Default "Vanishing American Air Superiority"

"Paul J. Adam" wrote in
:

I think you need to re-examine the credentials of your Old Boy. He
wasn't related to Baron Castleshortt VC, was he?


A name of which we do not see enough on Newsnet. In the past on
rec.heraldry he has been a source of endless mirth.
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)
  #195  
Old March 19th 10, 11:37 AM posted to rec.aviation.military,sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military.naval
Keith Willshaw[_1_]
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Posts: 42
Default "Vanishing American Air Superiority"



"Alexander" wrote in message
...
Paul J. Adam wrote:
In message
, Ken
S. Tucker writes
On Mar 18, 12:36 am, "William Black"
wrote:
Aren't we forgetting someone?
This being a naval group and all...

The RN was pretty much useless, recall Pearl Harbor,


Ships sunk in port on a Sunday. Relates to ships at night, mixed in with
your invasion force, how?
suppose the
Nazi's
float a bunch of cheap boats, the RN responds and the Luftwaff
would've put
a lot of iron in the channel.


At night?

The Luftwaffe was pretty poor at sinking ships in 1940.


Stukas did a very credible job.

They got four of
forty destroyers at Dunkirk over days, when they were stopped to take on
troops: here they have to sink forty destroyers very fast, at night,
while they're making thirty knots.


I would more attribute that to your air cover. Ships then as now were
sitting ducks. Or did you forget massive air battles at the Coral Sea,
Wake Island, Midway Island etc. Japanese aircraft did a real job at Pearl
harbor on both anchored ships and fast moving destroyers in the outer
harbor at Pearl Harbor.


List of fast moving destroyers sunk at Pearl Harbor

Start of List
End of List

The 3 destroyers 'sunk' at Pearl Harbor were all in dry dock at the
time and were repaired and returned to service.

The only destroyer on patrol damaged was the USS Helm. The
bombs aimed at her missed but some damage was done by
strafing. It was minor and she stayed on patrol joining the escort
group of the USS Saratoga.

Keith

  #196  
Old March 19th 10, 11:42 AM posted to rec.aviation.military,sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military.naval
Alexander
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Posts: 25
Default "Vanishing American Air Superiority"

Ken S. Tucker wrote:
On Mar 18, 10:48 pm, Dan wrote:
Ken S. Tucker wrote:
On Mar 18, 2:59 pm, Chris wrote:
On Mar 18, 2:47 pm, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote:
The RN was pretty much useless, recall Pearl Harbor, suppose the
This feels like I'm being punked, but let's go ahead and treat this as
a real argument.
If you are trying to say that airplanes will surely sink the RN and
allow Sealion to continue because a lot of ships were sunk at Pearl
Harbor, then your argument fails.
The Imperial Japanese Navy attacked Pearl Harbor. They would not be
involved in a Sealion invasion.
What you need to understand is that the IJN was the best in the world
at sinking ships at this time. The period from before Pearl Harbor
through to the middle of the Guadalcanal campaign or so is their high
water mark. Saying that because the Japanese in that time frame could
sink a lot of ships in a few hours (especially when they are
obligingly stationary in port during daylight) therefore the Germans
could to (at night while steaming at 20+ knots) is like saying that
because LeBron James and the Cleveland Cavaliers beat the Lakers, me
and my friend's who play pick-up basketball will too (even if we give
them a 15 point head start) .
Let's do a quick comparison of the Luftwaffe (and this is mighty
Fliegerkorps X a year later, specially trained for attacking ships-
but not in September 1940) and the IJN. During the evacuation of Crete
HMS Fiji and HMS Gloucester operated inside Luftwaffe air range for
over two days, with no fighter support, and were only sunk when the
two cruisers ran out of AA ammo. During Operation C the Kido Butai's
dive bombers (the torpedo bombers held their weapons, hoping for
better targets) put HMS Cornwall and HMS Dorsetshire both underwater
within a half-hour of the first bomb falling.
That is the level of difference we are talking about between the
Japanese and the Germans: an order of magnitude in effectiveness. And
then factor in the difference between hitting ships that are moving
and hitting ships that are berthed in port, and I begin to suspect
that you are not fully serious with this argument.
Nazi's
float a bunch of cheap boats, the RN responds and the Luftwaffe
Were would they get these cheap boats? They didn't have enough to
carry their invasion force, even by essentially ending all river
traffic and causing significant economic dislocation (in particular,
coal transport was seriously curtailed, meaning that steel production
was way down- see Tooze, _Wages of Destruction_). Barges were critical
for German economic activity, and they didn't have enough (largely
because Hitler had focused on other things, allowing most of the
transportation infrastructure to degrade severely- the Reichsbahn
suffered quite badly too).
I am leaning towards the conclusion that this argument of yours must
be some sort of elaborate hoax, though I am at a loss as to the
purpose.
Chris Manteuffel
As a hobby I build houses, cottages and track vehicles, here's pix,
http://www.flickr.com/photos/dynamics/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/3515661...7616995388478/
that's for fun.

Toy tanks and play houses are a far cry from combat vehicles.



An army of 100,000 could easily turn out 1000 barges a day!
Low skill labor, I could organize that.
Use math, 30,000/month, disposable on the beach of choice.
No hoax, brits would "likely" be overwhelmed.
Ken

Perhaps if there were production lines, no sealant or paint cure
times and the like there could have been "1000 barges a day made." Where
does the wood come from? Are you thinking they should have used fresh
cut wood? If they are motorized where do the engines come from? Combat
vehicles and aircraft had priority. If they aren't motorized how do they
get across the Channel? For that matter, how long would they take to get
across?

The Higgins boats were far superior to anything the Nazis toyed with
for beach landings. They couldn't safely cross the Channel fast enough
to avoid detection and destruction.

Let's assume in Tucker World® the Nazis could have amassed 30,000
barges and got them across the Channel. How many could beach at a time?
Other than offloading men and man portable supplies and weaponry what
can you get on the beach in rapid succession? The Nazis had no plans for
Mulberry equivalents so any vehicles would have to be off loaded onto
that beach. Let's see, you have men on the beach securing a beach head,
a beach clogged with barges, barges off shore waiting en masse, very
limited Nazi naval gun support (if any), no AAA on the beach etc. and,
assuming the landing is at dawn, a bunch of collisions between the
barges. I suppose an unopposed landing might succeed, but there's the
rub, the locals would be able to out man the Nazis, the Nazis wouldn't
be able to stop the RAF from banging them up a bit and the RN wasn't far
away.

I'm sure you can organize the low skilled labour. I base that on the
workmanship of your playhouses.


How long does it take you to remove an engine?



Actually Kaiser of America built thousands of liberty ships out of
Fero-concrete. Diesel Engine dropped in minutes and they sailed convoy
across the Atlantic to England, Russia and later France. Cheap and very
fast to build. Could build them faster then they could be sunk. Although
reading their history..They were a bitch to sink.

It takes me about 10 minutes, 5 if I don't take a break.
I can do a 35 hp outboard myself, with no problem in about
3 minutes, including gas tank, done that as a kid.
Pulling up a 50hp off a boat is pretty much my limit.
So you assign a strong man to that task and send it back.

Danelda, the Nazi's could mass produce V2 rockets, do ya
really think mass producing 50 hp outboards motors would
be a problem?

So I mass produce barges, say 10'x40' from a forest (duh),
and put a few 50's on it and my stuff gets to england in 5 hrs,
using a compass on a foggy night, there's a lot of coast to
make 'numerous' beach heads.
Any RN is dead when He's, Dorniers, Me-110's equiped with Nazi
torpedoes with Me-109 cover, I'll toss in some Stuka's.
Nazi's torpedoes worked, and what's RN using, searchlights to
locate the barges at night, they is DOA. Even a ding-bat pilot
could toast a RN ship with a torpedo as soon as it lights up.

If I was in command of Sea Lion, england would be conquered
without doubt, fortunately your boyfriend Hitler wasn't interested,
and ****ed around with england and under that cover, planned
and assembled for attacking Russia.

Actually Dan I think you're right about that in a previous post.
That's new to me, so I appreciate that insight, Hitler doing
smoke and mirrors in Battle of Britain as Stalin wrings his ugly
hands in delight as Europeans fight, especially given the treaty
he had Hitler sign, no attacking for 10 years, hard to trust people,
as he moves to Barbarossa, almost worked.
Ken

  #197  
Old March 19th 10, 11:46 AM posted to rec.aviation.military,sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military.naval
Don Ocean[_2_]
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Default "Vanishing American Air Superiority"

Peter Stickney wrote:
On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 21:23:18 -0500, Don Ocean wrote:

Keith Willshaw wrote:

"Ken S. Tucker" wrote in message
...
On Mar 17, 3:38 pm, "Paul J. Adam"
wrote:
In message
,
Ken S. Tucker writes

I was told the Nazi's could have easily taken England, no sweat.
In the same way that the Japanese could have conquered the US in five
days in 1941 if they'd only bothered to try? (Land in California,
commandeer weapons and transport from the cowardly fleeing populace,
race the bad news to Washington, impose Imperial hegemony, declare
victory while forcibly recruiting all white females between seven and
seventy for "recreational services"?)

I think whoever was telling you this, was pulling your leg so hard
it's still out of its socket, and they're still telling the story of
"some clueless guy called Tucker" who didn't just swallow the hook
but took the line, and the sinker, and tried to eat the rod as well.
I think the source is reliable, my Old Boy was a WW2 vet spook who had
more access to info than any historian will ever get, and explained
it to me. That said, I don't want to play 'what if' games, ok. But
I'll let you in on a secret, the Brits had thousands of cannons after
Dunkirk, available for Nazi photo recon, made of wood logs, that's all
the Brits had was bluff, but I think it was good in any case, the
croats
figured it was real.


Britain was not at war with Croatia.

The Brits, had a few rifles left after Dunkirk, 2 or 3.
Apart from those in the hands of the 11 infantry divisions and 2
armoured brigades deployed for home defense.

Those 2 or 3 rifles came in rather handy in defeating the large Italian
army that invaded Egypt


Paint a few hundred barges black and gliders too, move out at 10 or 11
pm, and by 5 am the king is being raped in the ass by Nazi's. As I
said, no sweat.
There are a few minor problems, 50+ destroyers, a couple of dozen
cruisers 5 or 6 Battleships and 20 bomber squadrons would be taking
turns at shooting up those barges which would be moving at a slow
walking pace. Oops.

All sunk of course. Checkmate. Do you really take the German general
staff as being amateurs at warfare? That has long been Englands
downfall. Underestimating others and overestimating themselves.


Actually, for all their posturing, press releases, and post-war finger pointing
that they were the Jedi Knights and that they only lost because of the Dead Guy
That Nobody Liked, the German General Staff was pretty poor.
(Let's see - 2 World Wars, 2 losses.)
The never, ever got a handle on the idea of logistics.
Coupling this with a grasp of Industrial Economy that was below that of
Lemurs, and the overweening arrogance that was taught to them from their
first Staff School on up - I don't think it was the Brits underestimating.
There's a reason why the Germans fought in short campaigns followed by extended
periods of quiescence. They did not ever have the industrial capacity, either in manufacturing,
or, more importantly, raw materials, to make up losses while the fighting was going on.
As soon as you take on opponents that won't kindly allow you a rest - The Soviet Union, the US, and, to a lesser
extent, the British Empire, you were guaranteed to lose.
(Some of their uniforms were kinda spiffy, though)

--
Pete Stickney
Failure is not an option
It comes bundled with the system


There you go again. Overestimating your capabilities and underestimating
the competition. You are a fool. IUt was fools that ridded Merry auld
England of her Empire.
  #198  
Old March 19th 10, 11:48 AM posted to rec.aviation.military,sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military.naval
Patriot
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Ken S. Tucker wrote:
On Mar 18, 1:32 pm, "Paul J. Adam"
wrote:
In message
, Ken
S. Tucker writes

On Mar 17, 3:38 pm, "Paul J. Adam"
wrote:
I think the source is reliable, my Old Boy was a WW2 vet spook who
had more access to info than any historian will ever get, and
explained
it to me.

That's one of maybe a dozen people, then. Why not just tell us his name?

But I'll let you in on a secret, the Brits had thousands of cannons
after
Dunkirk, available for Nazi photo recon, made of wood logs, that's all
the Brits had was bluff, but I think it was good in any case, the
croats
figured it was real.

Croats? Whiskey tango foxtrot, interrogative?

We certainly had a big deception plan going in Kent... in 1944 to create
FUSAG and keep the Germans waiting in the Pas de Calais.

As far as artillery went, *immediately* after Dunkirk - on 8 June - we
had about 400 tanks, 420 field guns and 163 medium and heavy guns
*immediately* available for use. We had fifteen infantry and one
armoured division in being.

Through June, the Navy brought back to the UK about another 200,000
troops, and some of their artillery and vehicles. (Common myth - Dunkirk
was by no means the end of the fighting in France)

The Brits, had a few rifles left after Dunkirk, 2 or 3.

About 70,000 after the Army's needs had been met.

Paint a few hundred barges black and gliders too, move out at 10 or
11 pm, and by 5 am the king is being raped in the ass by Nazi's.

Move out at 10pm in your three-knot barges, and by 5am you're not even
half-way across the Channel.

You have, however, met and felt the fire of the Auxiliary Patrol, and by
this point you're seeing destroyers by the dozen... and none of them
German.

I think you need to re-examine the credentials of your Old Boy. He
wasn't related to Baron Castleshortt VC, was he?
Paul


You have the benefit of wearing rose colored glasses, but be careful,
you may end up paying for "easy" wars in Iraq, Afghanistan and ...
OTOH, it's good to have realistic hard cold logical analysis.
Ken


Iraq was a massive fools mistake. Afghanistan should have stayed a
standoff war.
  #199  
Old March 19th 10, 11:49 AM posted to rec.aviation.military,sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military.naval
Alexander
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Posts: 25
Default "Vanishing American Air Superiority"

Dan wrote:
Ken S. Tucker wrote:
On Mar 18, 1:32 pm, "Paul J. Adam"
wrote:
In message
, Ken
S. Tucker writes

On Mar 17, 3:38 pm, "Paul J. Adam"
wrote:
I think the source is reliable, my Old Boy was a WW2 vet spook who
had more access to info than any historian will ever get, and
explained
it to me.
That's one of maybe a dozen people, then. Why not just tell us his name?

But I'll let you in on a secret, the Brits had thousands of cannons
after
Dunkirk, available for Nazi photo recon, made of wood logs, that's all
the Brits had was bluff, but I think it was good in any case, the
croats
figured it was real.
Croats? Whiskey tango foxtrot, interrogative?

We certainly had a big deception plan going in Kent... in 1944 to create
FUSAG and keep the Germans waiting in the Pas de Calais.

As far as artillery went, *immediately* after Dunkirk - on 8 June - we
had about 400 tanks, 420 field guns and 163 medium and heavy guns
*immediately* available for use. We had fifteen infantry and one
armoured division in being.

Through June, the Navy brought back to the UK about another 200,000
troops, and some of their artillery and vehicles. (Common myth - Dunkirk
was by no means the end of the fighting in France)

The Brits, had a few rifles left after Dunkirk, 2 or 3.
About 70,000 after the Army's needs had been met.

Paint a few hundred barges black and gliders too, move out at 10 or
11 pm, and by 5 am the king is being raped in the ass by Nazi's.
Move out at 10pm in your three-knot barges, and by 5am you're not even
half-way across the Channel.

You have, however, met and felt the fire of the Auxiliary Patrol, and by
this point you're seeing destroyers by the dozen... and none of them
German.

I think you need to re-examine the credentials of your Old Boy. He
wasn't related to Baron Castleshortt VC, was he?
Paul


You have the benefit of wearing rose colored glasses, but be careful,
you may end up paying for "easy" wars in Iraq, Afghanistan and ...
OTOH, it's good to have realistic hard cold logical analysis.
Ken


When you locate a source for "hard, cold, logical analysis" feel free
to get back to us.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired


Doubtful that you would understand such.
  #200  
Old March 19th 10, 11:50 AM posted to rec.aviation.military,sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military.naval
Jack Linthicum
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Posts: 301
Default "Vanishing American Air Superiority"

On Mar 18, 9:43*pm, Alexander wrote:
Keith Willshaw wrote:

"William Black" wrote in message
...


The Brits, had a few rifles left after Dunkirk, 2 or 3.
Paint a few hundred barges black and gliders too, move out at 10 or
11 pm, and by 5 am the king is being raped in the ass by Nazi's.
As I said, no sweat.


Aren't we forgetting someone?


This being a naval group and all...


Oh yes, *and assuming they do land. *How on earth do they get over the
Military Canal in a night?


As prisoners under escort on their way to a POW camp ?


After the few survivors wade ashore from the burning and
sinking barges I'd imagine surrender would seem a good option.


The Germans that the limeys did capture usually escaped into the German
underground railroad and went home. Only those in maximum security were
not so lucky.



Keith




Or ended up in Canada. One made it "home" from there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_One...way_%28film%29
 




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