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"Vanishing American Air Superiority"



 
 
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  #201  
Old March 19th 10, 11:53 AM posted to rec.aviation.military,sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military.naval
Keith Willshaw[_1_]
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Posts: 42
Default "Vanishing American Air Superiority"



"Don Ocean" wrote in message
...
Keith Willshaw wrote:



There are a few minor problems, 50+ destroyers, a couple of dozen
cruisers
5 or 6 Battleships and 20 bomber squadrons would be taking turns
at shooting up those barges which would be moving at a slow
walking pace. Oops.


All sunk of course.


Hand waving wont achieve that.

Checkmate. Do you really take the German general staff as being amateurs
at warfare?


The Kriegsmarine staff had no illusions about the chances of
success of any invasion. Admiral Raeder argued strongly that
any such invasion would be a costly failure.

This opinion was reinforced by the landing exercise carried
out off Boulogne by 50 barges in broad daylight. After travelling
less than a mile they were to run into the beach.

In ideal weather one barge capsized and sank, another lost its tow
and drifted out to sea, several managed to beach broadside on
to the waves making landing very hazardous. The barges were
very widely dispersed with many landing hundreds of metres
from their intended point

Only 50% of the troops managed to get out of the barges
and on to the beach in the hour allocated and 10% never got to
shore at all.

Now factoring in a 30 hour crossing instead of 1 hour , night time and
the tidal race in mid channel I think they'd have taken 20% casualties
without the British firing and the remainder would have been
scattered along the coast of Kent and East Sussex

That has long been Englands downfall. Underestimating others and
overestimating themselves.


The Luftwaffe confidently assured the Fuhrer that they could achieve
air superiority, they failed badly. Who underestimated whom I wonder.

Keith

  #202  
Old March 19th 10, 11:56 AM posted to rec.aviation.military,sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military.naval
Keith Willshaw[_1_]
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Posts: 42
Default "Vanishing American Air Superiority"



"Ken S. Tucker" wrote in message
...


An army of 100,000 could easily turn out 1000 barges a day!
Low skill labor, I could organize that.


Who would make the oars ?

Use math, 30,000/month, disposable on the beach of choice.
No hoax, brits would "likely" be overwhelmed.
Ken


I think its very nice that the asylum allows you access to the internet
but they really should take more care about your medication.

Keith



  #203  
Old March 19th 10, 11:58 AM posted to rec.aviation.military,sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military.naval
Alexander
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Posts: 25
Default "Vanishing American Air Superiority"

Dan wrote:
Alexander wrote:
Ken S. Tucker wrote:
On Mar 17, 3:38 pm, "Paul J. Adam"
wrote:
In message
,
Ken
S. Tucker writes

I was told the Nazi's could have easily taken England, no sweat.
In the same way that the Japanese could have conquered the US in five
days in 1941 if they'd only bothered to try? (Land in California,
commandeer weapons and transport from the cowardly fleeing populace,
race the bad news to Washington, impose Imperial hegemony, declare
victory while forcibly recruiting all white females between seven and
seventy for "recreational services"?)

I think whoever was telling you this, was pulling your leg so hard it's
still out of its socket, and they're still telling the story of "some
clueless guy called Tucker" who didn't just swallow the hook but took
the line, and the sinker, and tried to eat the rod as well.

I think the source is reliable, my Old Boy was a WW2 vet spook who
had more access to info than any historian will ever get, and
explained
it to me. That said, I don't want to play 'what if' games, ok.
But I'll let you in on a secret, the Brits had thousands of cannons
after
Dunkirk, available for Nazi photo recon, made of wood logs, that's all
the Brits had was bluff, but I think it was good in any case, the
croats
figured it was real.

The Brits, had a few rifles left after Dunkirk, 2 or 3.
Paint a few hundred barges black and gliders too, move out at 10 or
11 pm, and by 5 am the king is being raped in the ass by Nazi's.
As I said, no sweat.
But what ****un good is the that Island to Hitlers greater scheme,
nothing, but we know now he made a strategic military error, and
as Chruchill promised his bombers burned the black heart of Germany,
that was very unpleasant to all who were involved.
I request a polite response, as I gave.
Ken


You mean all those B17's, B24's, B25's, B26's etc were all Churchill's?
Don't forget the B29's. I have a few magazine clips showing thousands
of Aircraft at a time flying over Germany. And with US Markings. Some
how I do believe it was a Joint operation. I do wonder where all that
avgas came from?


Not very good at history, are you? Dunkirk evacuation was 24 May - 4
June 1940. The U.S. aircraft you mention didn't get to the UK until 1942
and B-29 never operated from there. The Brits had been striking the
Nazis for some time before the U.S. got there. As for your "magazine
clips" do try to think for a bit, the U.S. flew in daylight, the UK flew
at night. It was hard to photograph aircraft at night.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired


The US Army Airforce flew all flights both day and night for quite some
time. My comments regarding air flights were not too wrong as we
furnished both pilots and planes prior to Dunkirk. Congress passed a
special law allowing combat pilots to leave American soil and join the
RAF without losing American citizenship. Many Pilots went to Canada and
transferred to England from there. Pappy Boyington(US Marine) flew for
General Chenault under Chiang kchek(sic) as one example. As for the
Daylight vs Night flights..that setup was some time later. Check the
archives of the 5th Army Airforce.
  #204  
Old March 19th 10, 11:59 AM posted to rec.aviation.military,sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military.naval
Jack Linthicum
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Posts: 301
Default "Vanishing American Air Superiority"

On Mar 18, 10:23*pm, Don Ocean wrote:
Keith Willshaw wrote:

"Ken S. Tucker" wrote in message
...
On Mar 17, 3:38 pm, "Paul J. Adam"
wrote:
In message
, Ken
S. Tucker writes


I was told the Nazi's could have easily taken England, no sweat.


In the same way that the Japanese could have conquered the US in five
days in 1941 if they'd only bothered to try? (Land in California,
commandeer weapons and transport from the cowardly fleeing populace,
race the bad news to Washington, impose Imperial hegemony, declare
victory while forcibly recruiting all white females between seven and
seventy for "recreational services"?)


I think whoever was telling you this, was pulling your leg so hard it's
still out of its socket, and they're still telling the story of "some
clueless guy called Tucker" who didn't just swallow the hook but took
the line, and the sinker, and tried to eat the rod as well.


I think the source is reliable, my Old Boy was a WW2 vet spook who
had more access to info than any historian will ever get, and
explained
it to me. That said, I don't want to play 'what if' games, ok.
But I'll let you in on a secret, the Brits had thousands of cannons
after
Dunkirk, available for Nazi photo recon, made of wood logs, that's all
the Brits had was bluff, but I think it was good in any case, the
croats
figured it was real.


Britain was not at war with Croatia.


The Brits, had a few rifles left after Dunkirk, 2 or 3.


Apart from those in the hands of the 11 infantry divisions and
2 armoured brigades deployed for home defense.


Those 2 or 3 rifles came in rather handy in defeating the large
Italian army that invaded Egypt


Paint a few hundred barges black and gliders too, move out at 10 or
11 pm, and by 5 am the king is being raped in the ass by Nazi's.
As I said, no sweat.


There are a few minor problems, 50+ destroyers, a couple of dozen cruisers
5 or 6 Battleships and 20 bomber squadrons would be taking turns
at shooting up those barges which would be moving at a slow
walking pace. Oops.


All sunk of course. Checkmate. Do you really take the German general
staff as being amateurs at warfare? That has long been Englands
downfall. Underestimating others and overestimating themselves.



Keith




Actually they were when it came to a cross-Channel invasion. Try the
various "Sea Lion" books and Warlimont's comments on the "planning"
that didn't go into that op. You get the impression it was beyond
their capabilities and certainly beyond Germany's. See OKW Directive
17.

da.mod.uk/defac/colleges/jscsc/.../CONF38_OKWdirectives_sealion.pdf
  #205  
Old March 19th 10, 12:08 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military.naval
Alexander
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Posts: 25
Default "Vanishing American Air Superiority"

Keith Willshaw wrote:


"Alexander" wrote in message
...
William Black wrote:

"Alexander" wrote in message
...

A determined Germany would have eaten England alive, but for massive
war materials and massive military direct aid.

Well, assuming they could get there, which they couldn't...


Are you really daft enough to believe that would always be?
That is a very short Channel.


Actually its about 300 miles long. At its narrowest its only about 22 miles
wide but that has its own problems.

The topography at its narrowest point is rather unfriendly to the invader.
Landing on the beach between Folkestone and Deal leaves you at the
foot of precipitous cliffs riddled with tunnels and batteries of guns.

Think Omaha beach x 10

If you head NE to the beaches around Deal , Sandwich and Ramsgate
you greatly increase the length of the sea crossing. Not a good idea when
your barges can only do 4 knots especially given that the tidal race in
those parts can run at 2-4 knots. Of course there is the little matter that
it brings you closer to the RN ships at Harwich, Ramsgate and Chatham

That leaves you landing on the beach between Folkestone and Rye.

This is an area the British Army had been planning to defend since
the Napoleonic wars. Apart from the fixed defenses there were gun
batteries placed back from the coast with pre-surveyed fields of fire.

There were five fully equipped infantry divisions covering this area
with another 5 and an armoured division held in reserve. The Germans
would have little or no armour or heavy guns but would be equipped
with infantry weapons and a few mountain guns and mortars. Pity
the poor soldier of the Heer short of food and ammunition trying
to cross the royal military canal under fire from 7.2" and 25 pounder
artillery into the teeth of the machine gun fire from the concrete
pillboxes
on the other side.

The purpose of the home guard was NOT so much to fight the German Army
as to release regular troops from routine security tasks.


paranoid racist diatribe deleted

Keith


Lots of Concrete Liberty ships would do the job just fine.
The point is really that the UK should learn from its past massive
mistakes and never get in this fix again.
  #206  
Old March 19th 10, 12:15 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military.naval
Keith Willshaw[_1_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 42
Default "Vanishing American Air Superiority"



"Alexander" wrote in message
...
Dan wrote:


The US Army Airforce flew all flights both day and night for quite some
time.


That'll come as news to the RAF

My comments regarding air flights were not too wrong as we furnished both
pilots and planes prior to Dunkirk.


The British were required to pay for any aircraft they received
at this time in gold. The aircraft were shipped to Canada
and sent over the border from there. With the exception of the
F4 Wildcat the American fighters were regarded as second rate
and relegated to the ground attack role.


Congress passed a special law allowing combat pilots to leave American
soil and join the RAF without losing American citizenship.


Feel free to provide proof for this assertion.

Many Pilots went to Canada and
transferred to England from there. Pappy Boyington(US Marine) flew for
General Chenault under Chiang kchek(sic) as one example.


A little confused as to geography as well as history I see.

Chiang Kai Shek was the leader of CHINA and Boyington
flew in CHINA not Britain.


As for the Daylight vs Night flights..that setup was some time later.
Check the archives of the 5th Army Airforce.


The 5th Airforce operated in the Phillipines, Australia and the south
pacific.
You really are confused aren't you.

Keith

  #207  
Old March 19th 10, 12:15 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military.naval
Alexander
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 25
Default "Vanishing American Air Superiority"

Keith Willshaw wrote:


"Alexander" wrote in message
...
Paul J. Adam wrote:
In message
,
Ken S. Tucker writes
On Mar 18, 12:36 am, "William Black"
wrote:
Aren't we forgetting someone?
This being a naval group and all...

The RN was pretty much useless, recall Pearl Harbor,

Ships sunk in port on a Sunday. Relates to ships at night, mixed in
with your invasion force, how?
suppose the
Nazi's
float a bunch of cheap boats, the RN responds and the Luftwaff
would've put
a lot of iron in the channel.

At night?

The Luftwaffe was pretty poor at sinking ships in 1940.


Stukas did a very credible job.

They got four of
forty destroyers at Dunkirk over days, when they were stopped to take
on troops: here they have to sink forty destroyers very fast, at
night, while they're making thirty knots.


I would more attribute that to your air cover. Ships then as now were
sitting ducks. Or did you forget massive air battles at the Coral Sea,
Wake Island, Midway Island etc. Japanese aircraft did a real job at
Pearl harbor on both anchored ships and fast moving destroyers in the
outer harbor at Pearl Harbor.


List of fast moving destroyers sunk at Pearl Harbor

Start of List
End of List

The 3 destroyers 'sunk' at Pearl Harbor were all in dry dock at the
time and were repaired and returned to service.

The only destroyer on patrol damaged was the USS Helm. The
bombs aimed at her missed but some damage was done by
strafing. It was minor and she stayed on patrol joining the escort
group of the USS Saratoga.

Keith


Good God...Don't you read the whole story or just what suites you? There
is even a plaque in the Admin building at Pearl. You missed the Fleet
tug that was in Floating Drydock along with 2 subchasers.
  #208  
Old March 19th 10, 12:23 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military.naval
Don Ocean[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9
Default "Vanishing American Air Superiority"

Keith Willshaw wrote:


"Alexander" wrote in message
...
Dan wrote:


The US Army Airforce flew all flights both day and night for quite
some time.


That'll come as news to the RAF

My comments regarding air flights were not too wrong as we furnished
both pilots and planes prior to Dunkirk.


The British were required to pay for any aircraft they received
at this time in gold. The aircraft were shipped to Canada
and sent over the border from there. With the exception of the
F4 Wildcat the American fighters were regarded as second rate
and relegated to the ground attack role.


Congress passed a special law allowing combat pilots to leave
American soil and join the RAF without losing American citizenship.


Feel free to provide proof for this assertion.

Many Pilots went to Canada and
transferred to England from there. Pappy Boyington(US Marine) flew for
General Chenault under Chiang kchek(sic) as one example.


A little confused as to geography as well as history I see.


Not a bit. I won't be telling you any jokes.. it would take days to
explain them to you.

Chiang Kai Shek was the leader of CHINA and Boyington
flew in CHINA not Britain.


Wow... you caught on.


As for the Daylight vs Night flights..that setup was some time later.
Check the archives of the 5th Army Airforce.


The 5th Airforce operated in the Phillipines, Australia and the south
pacific.


You really really need to recheck your data.

You really are confused aren't you.


Keith, your senility is overwhelming. I bow to your superior stupidity. ;-p

Keith

  #209  
Old March 19th 10, 12:50 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military.naval
Peter Skelton
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 93
Default "Vanishing American Air Superiority"

On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 05:36:26 -0500, Andrew Chaplin
wrote:

"Paul J. Adam" wrote in
:

I think you need to re-examine the credentials of your Old Boy. He
wasn't related to Baron Castleshortt VC, was he?


A name of which we do not see enough on Newsnet. In the past on
rec.heraldry he has been a source of endless mirth.


He rates his own Wikki article, it's a little amusing. (under
James Shortt)


Peter Skelton
  #210  
Old March 19th 10, 01:22 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military.naval
Jim Wilkins
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Posts: 57
Default "Vanishing American Air Superiority"

On Mar 18, 11:45*pm, Chris wrote:
On Mar 18, 10:05*pm, Alexander wrote:
...

As I already noted in another post, please don't base your ideas for
what the Germans could do based on the successes of the Japanese Navy.
The Japanese Navy was so much better than the Luftwaffe at sinking
ships that the comparison is ludicrous.
...
Chris Manteuffel


Pearl Harbor was an unexpected attack on close-packed stationary
ships, inspired by the British success at Taranto. The Japanese
weren't that good at bombing defended shipping at sea, Guadalcanal for
example. One can assume that Spitfires would be at least as effective
as Wildcats at protecting the ships.

jsw
 




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