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"Vanishing American Air Superiority"



 
 
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  #211  
Old March 19th 10, 01:32 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military.naval
Jack Linthicum
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Posts: 301
Default "Vanishing American Air Superiority"

On Mar 19, 8:22*am, Jim Wilkins wrote:
On Mar 18, 11:45*pm, Chris wrote:

On Mar 18, 10:05*pm, Alexander wrote:
...


As I already noted in another post, please don't base your ideas for
what the Germans could do based on the successes of the Japanese Navy.
The Japanese Navy was so much better than the Luftwaffe at sinking
ships that the comparison is ludicrous.
...
Chris Manteuffel


Pearl Harbor was an unexpected attack on close-packed stationary
ships, inspired by the British success at Taranto. The Japanese
weren't that good at bombing defended shipping at sea, Guadalcanal for
example. One can assume that Spitfires would be at least as effective
as Wildcats at protecting the ships.

jsw


Ask the HMS Prince of Wales and HMS Repulse how good the Japanese
were at bombing ships in the open sea.
  #212  
Old March 19th 10, 01:47 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military.naval
Bill Kambic[_2_]
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Posts: 49
Default "Vanishing American Air Superiority"

On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 21:49:25 -0700 (PDT), "Ken S. Tucker"
wrote:

An army of 100,000 could easily turn out 1000 barges a day!
Low skill labor, I could organize that.
Use math, 30,000/month, disposable on the beach of choice.
No hoax, brits would "likely" be overwhelmed.
Ken


If all it took was barges you might be right.

If the barge production was unhindered you might be right.

If the barges got where they were going you might be right.

But all those "if's" (and a whole lot more) mean that the project was
never really feasible.

Ever wonder how the Allies supplied themselves after D-Day? They
didn't have any functioning ports (and it's unlikely the Germans would
have had any). So how did they do it? Research that a bit and you'll
see that landing the invasion force is the "tip of the spear" but if
there's no "haft" behind it you just generate casualties.

Another interesting case study might be the invasion of Guadalcanal.
Look at our problems; look at the Japanese problems

Once again, amatueurs study tactics; professionals study logistics.
  #213  
Old March 19th 10, 01:53 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military.naval
Jack Linthicum
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Posts: 301
Default "Vanishing American Air Superiority"

On Mar 19, 8:47*am, Bill Kambic wrote:
On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 21:49:25 -0700 (PDT), "Ken S. Tucker"

wrote:
An army of 100,000 could easily turn out 1000 barges a day!
Low skill labor, I could organize that.
Use math, 30,000/month, disposable on the beach of choice.
No hoax, brits would "likely" be overwhelmed.
Ken


If all it took was barges you might be right.

If the barge production was unhindered you might be right.

If the barges got where they were going you might be right.

But all those "if's" (and a whole lot more) mean that the project was
never really feasible.

Ever wonder how the Allies supplied themselves after D-Day? *They
didn't have any functioning ports (and it's unlikely the Germans would
have had any). *So how did they do it? *Research that a bit and you'll
see that landing the invasion force is the "tip of the spear" but if
there's no "haft" behind it you just generate casualties.

Another interesting case study might be the invasion of Guadalcanal.
Look at our problems; look at the Japanese problems

Once again, amatueurs study tactics; professionals study logistics.


Look up "Mulberry"
  #214  
Old March 19th 10, 01:55 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military.naval
Bill Kambic[_2_]
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Posts: 49
Default "Vanishing American Air Superiority"

On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 21:34:42 -0500, Alexander
wrote:

If the ports are over run who refuels, rearms the ships that are now
toothless. Germany do a helluva a job resupplying their troops megamiles
away in Russia. That is until American Airpower mixed with what little
airpower England had left wiped out their supply lines. Germany was
basically starving to death from 1943 onward and yet damned near turned
the tide at the battle of the bulge. With out American logistics England
and Russia were flat ****ed! Get over it. You fools made bad decisions
and we bailed you out. Now we have made some bad economic decisions and
I doubt any of you will even stir to bail us out. Of course we will turn
this around on our own as we always have in the past.


How did the Allies supply themselves in Normandy without any
operational ports? Since the Germans would not have any operational
ports, how would they supply themselves?

  #215  
Old March 19th 10, 01:59 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military.naval
Keith Willshaw[_1_]
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Posts: 42
Default "Vanishing American Air Superiority"



"Alexander" wrote in message
...
Keith Willshaw wrote:


"Alexander" wrote in message
...
William Black wrote:

"Alexander" wrote in message
...

A determined Germany would have eaten England alive, but for massive
war materials and massive military direct aid.

Well, assuming they could get there, which they couldn't...

Are you really daft enough to believe that would always be?
That is a very short Channel.


Actually its about 300 miles long. At its narrowest its only about 22
miles
wide but that has its own problems.

The topography at its narrowest point is rather unfriendly to the
invader.
Landing on the beach between Folkestone and Deal leaves you at the
foot of precipitous cliffs riddled with tunnels and batteries of guns.

Think Omaha beach x 10

If you head NE to the beaches around Deal , Sandwich and Ramsgate
you greatly increase the length of the sea crossing. Not a good idea when
your barges can only do 4 knots especially given that the tidal race in
those parts can run at 2-4 knots. Of course there is the little matter
that
it brings you closer to the RN ships at Harwich, Ramsgate and Chatham

That leaves you landing on the beach between Folkestone and Rye.

This is an area the British Army had been planning to defend since
the Napoleonic wars. Apart from the fixed defenses there were gun
batteries placed back from the coast with pre-surveyed fields of fire.

There were five fully equipped infantry divisions covering this area
with another 5 and an armoured division held in reserve. The Germans
would have little or no armour or heavy guns but would be equipped
with infantry weapons and a few mountain guns and mortars. Pity
the poor soldier of the Heer short of food and ammunition trying
to cross the royal military canal under fire from 7.2" and 25 pounder
artillery into the teeth of the machine gun fire from the concrete
pillboxes
on the other side.

The purpose of the home guard was NOT so much to fight the German Army
as to release regular troops from routine security tasks.


paranoid racist diatribe deleted

Keith


Lots of Concrete Liberty ships would do the job just fine.


List of concrete liberty ships built worldwide

Start of List
End of List

The point is really that the UK should learn from its past massive
mistakes and never get in this fix again.


That was achieved in 1945 with the dismantling of the detestable Nazi
regime.

Keith

  #216  
Old March 19th 10, 02:02 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military.naval
Keith Willshaw[_1_]
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Posts: 42
Default "Vanishing American Air Superiority"



"Don Ocean" wrote in message
...
Keith Willshaw wrote:


"Alexander" wrote in message
...
Dan wrote:


The US Army Airforce flew all flights both day and night for quite some
time.


That'll come as news to the RAF

My comments regarding air flights were not too wrong as we furnished
both pilots and planes prior to Dunkirk.


The British were required to pay for any aircraft they received
at this time in gold. The aircraft were shipped to Canada
and sent over the border from there. With the exception of the
F4 Wildcat the American fighters were regarded as second rate
and relegated to the ground attack role.


Congress passed a special law allowing combat pilots to leave American
soil and join the RAF without losing American citizenship.


Feel free to provide proof for this assertion.

Many Pilots went to Canada and
transferred to England from there. Pappy Boyington(US Marine) flew for
General Chenault under Chiang kchek(sic) as one example.


A little confused as to geography as well as history I see.


Not a bit. I won't be telling you any jokes.. it would take days to
explain them to you.

Chiang Kai Shek was the leader of CHINA and Boyington
flew in CHINA not Britain.


Wow... you caught on.


As for the Daylight vs Night flights..that setup was some time later.
Check the archives of the 5th Army Airforce.


The 5th Airforce operated in the Phillipines, Australia and the south
pacific.


You really really need to recheck your data.


http://www.yokota.af.mil/library/fac...et.asp?id=6824

Pot Kettle Black


You really are confused aren't you.


Keith, your senility is overwhelming. I bow to your superior stupidity.
;-p


Coming from the man who cant tell the difference between the 5th and
8th air forces or England and China this is funny

Keith


  #217  
Old March 19th 10, 02:16 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military.naval
Jack Linthicum
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 301
Default "Vanishing American Air Superiority"

On Mar 19, 8:55*am, Bill Kambic wrote:
On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 21:34:42 -0500, Alexander
wrote:

If the ports are over run who refuels, rearms the ships that are now
toothless. Germany do a helluva a job resupplying their troops megamiles
away in Russia. That is until American Airpower mixed with what little
airpower England had left wiped out their supply lines. Germany was
basically starving to death from 1943 onward and yet damned near turned
the tide at the battle of the bulge. With out American logistics England
and Russia were flat ****ed! Get over it. You fools made bad decisions
and we bailed you out. Now we have made some bad economic decisions and
I doubt any of you will even stir to bail us out. Of course we will turn
this around on our own as we always have in the past.


How did the Allies supply themselves in Normandy without any
operational ports? *Since the Germans would not have any operational
ports, how would they supply themselves?


As I said in another response to this question "look up 'Mulberry'"
  #218  
Old March 19th 10, 02:35 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military.naval
Peter Skelton
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Posts: 93
Default "Vanishing American Air Superiority"

On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 05:32:45 -0700 (PDT), Jack Linthicum
wrote:

On Mar 19, 8:22*am, Jim Wilkins wrote:
On Mar 18, 11:45*pm, Chris wrote:

On Mar 18, 10:05*pm, Alexander wrote:
...


As I already noted in another post, please don't base your ideas for
what the Germans could do based on the successes of the Japanese Navy.
The Japanese Navy was so much better than the Luftwaffe at sinking
ships that the comparison is ludicrous.
...
Chris Manteuffel


Pearl Harbor was an unexpected attack on close-packed stationary
ships, inspired by the British success at Taranto. The Japanese
weren't that good at bombing defended shipping at sea, Guadalcanal for
example. One can assume that Spitfires would be at least as effective
as Wildcats at protecting the ships.

jsw


Ask the HMS Prince of Wales and HMS Repulse how good the Japanese
were at bombing ships in the open sea.


Jack, he said defended shipping and clarified his meaning by a
comment about defending aircraft.

You really must start reading the stuff you respond to.


Peter Skelton
  #219  
Old March 19th 10, 02:50 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military.naval
Dan[_12_]
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Posts: 451
Default "Vanishing American Air Superiority"

Alexander wrote:
Dan wrote:
Alexander wrote:
snip


Face it.. You people started 2 wars against
Germany, which if we had not interfered would have kicked your asses
bloody. For Christs sake, learn your lesson and don't start any more
damned wars. Same goes for us.


Read a history book. Germany invaded her neighbours unprovoked at
the start of both world wars.


Bull****. Provocation was there and it would have ended very quietly,
except for the English perfidy. Damned limeys were forever tinkering in
the business of others.


The "limeys" didn't invade Poland, Russia and France in WW2 nor did
they invade Russia or France in WW1. There might have been a lot of
bluster all around prior to both wars, but Germany started shooting first.

No one in America wanted any part of that war.

Not true.

The Idiot Wilson decided he needed some imperialism to beat Teddy
Roosevelt in the upcoming 1917 election.


So, Zimmeran's telegram and the ongoing sinking of commerce had no
influence on Wilson's request for a declaration of war? Under the
Constitution only Congress can issue a declaration of war.

Even Teddy thought it was a
stupid move. It was.

Noting your bias against the UK and Israel I'm
sure you will find a way to blame those 2 countries anyway.


I lay blame where blame is due. Obviously you neglected your oxygen a
few too many times. Our business is America. Do try and remember that.
Even the US Airforce's business is America. By the way...Some of
Englands loudest critics are the English themselves. There is no true UK
anymore. Israel just told America to go **** itself. They did the same
to President Eisenhower. We do not have any need to keep destroying our
economy for the Zionist Ashkenazi Jews of Israel.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired


I can see why!


No, you can't see why. It's simple, I did 20+ years.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
  #220  
Old March 19th 10, 02:59 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,sci.military.naval,rec.aviation.military.naval
Dan[_12_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 451
Default "Vanishing American Air Superiority"

Keith Willshaw wrote:


"Ken S. Tucker" wrote in message
...


An army of 100,000 could easily turn out 1000 barges a day!
Low skill labor, I could organize that.


Who would make the oars ?

Use math, 30,000/month, disposable on the beach of choice.
No hoax, brits would "likely" be overwhelmed.
Ken


I think its very nice that the asylum allows you access to the internet
but they really should take more care about your medication.

Keith



Can you imagine 30,000 underpowered barges drifting around the
Channel at night with the RN running laps through the herd swamping
them for sport? No need to shoot, just raise a wake.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
 




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