"Vanishing American Air Superiority"

In message , Alexander
writes
Andrew Swallow wrote:
And even if they do get to England how does the German Army resupply?
The Royal Navy would find sinking unarmed merchant ships and barges in
the Channel a turkey shoot. Unlike land battles ordinary trunks on
ordinary roads/railways cannot be used.

If the ports are over run who refuels, rearms the ships that are now
toothless.

So you have to capture Portsmouth, Dover, Harwich, Hull and Scapa all in
the first day of the war?

Going to be an... interesting task.

Germany do a helluva a job resupplying their troops megamiles away in
Russia.

That "helluva job" had the front lines running out of fuel, ammunition
and spare parts even in 1941, and the winter clothing never did make it
through. The Germans never did get a grip on logistics.

--
He thinks too much, such men are dangerous.

Paul J. Adam

Bill Kambic wrote:


How did the Allies supply themselves in Normandy without any
operational ports? Since the Germans would not have any operational
ports, how would they supply themselves?


Mulberry harbours
http://www.combinedops.com/Mulberry%20Harbours.htm

and PLUTO
http://www.combinedops.com/pluto.htm

On Mar 19, 10:02*am, Jack Linthicum
wrote:
...
I would not call the ships sunk at Guadalcanal "shipping". They were
warships. Chicago, Quincy, Vincennes, Canberra and Astoria all Cruisers.

They were sunk by IJN gunfire in NIGHT battles where aircraft from
neither side participated. The Japanese Navy ruled the seas by night,
the Cactus Air Force by day, until the battleship Washington arrived.

From "Guadalcanal Diary"
"I found out later that there had been forty Japanese planes
attacking; that sixteen of these were shot down on the spot, and the
remaining twenty-four destroyed by our fighters, one by one, as they
streaked for home. The Japanese torpedo bombers had not gone after the
warships, contenting themselves with merely strafing the transports as
they passed by."

One transport, the George F. Elliot, was hit by a crashing plane and
lost.

So you were a CIA analyst???

jsw

On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 05:53:42 -0700 (PDT), Jack Linthicum
wrote:

Look up "Mulberry"

I know what a "Mulberry" was. I also know that they were part of a
solution. What was the rest of it?

On Mar 19, 12:58*pm, "Paul J. Adam"
wrote:
In message , Alexander
writes

Andrew Swallow wrote:
And even if they do get to England how does the German Army resupply?
The Royal Navy would find sinking unarmed merchant ships and barges in
the Channel a turkey shoot. *Unlike land battles ordinary trunks on
ordinary roads/railways cannot be used.

If the ports are over run who refuels, rearms the ships that are now
toothless.

So you have to capture Portsmouth, Dover, Harwich, Hull and Scapa all in
the first day of the war?

Going to be an... interesting task.

Germany do a helluva a job resupplying their troops megamiles away in
Russia.

That "helluva job" had the front lines running out of fuel, ammunition
and spare parts even in 1941, and the winter clothing never did make it
through. The Germans never did get a grip on logistics.

--
He thinks too much, such men are dangerous.

Paul J. Adam

Out of Warlimont's "memoirs", a bit of revelation. "Since the war the
results of a number of high-level studies conducted by the Luftwaffe
towards the end of the thirties have been published; all led to the
conclusion that in all probability the Luftwaffe, even with the
support of the Navy, would not be able to bring about the capitulation
of the British Isles--add all this up and it is clear that the
officers at the highest levels of the OKW were misled and deceived.
Hitler at least must have been fully briefed by Goring on the
limitations to the capabilities of the Luftwaffe."

He likes to duck the responsibility for not knowing about these
studies.

On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 06:16:15 -0700 (PDT), Jack Linthicum
wrote:

On Mar 19, 8:55*am, Bill Kambic wrote:
On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 21:34:42 -0500, Alexander
wrote:

If the ports are over run who refuels, rearms the ships that are now
toothless. Germany do a helluva a job resupplying their troops megamiles
away in Russia. That is until American Airpower mixed with what little
airpower England had left wiped out their supply lines. Germany was
basically starving to death from 1943 onward and yet damned near turned
the tide at the battle of the bulge. With out American logistics England
and Russia were flat ****ed! Get over it. You fools made bad decisions
and we bailed you out. Now we have made some bad economic decisions and
I doubt any of you will even stir to bail us out. Of course we will turn
this around on our own as we always have in the past.

How did the Allies supply themselves in Normandy without any
operational ports? *Since the Germans would not have any operational
ports, how would they supply themselves?

As I said in another response to this question "look up 'Mulberry'"

And, again, I invite you to look at the rest of the picture.

My response is also directed to Mr. Kambic's reply,
concerning logistics.

On Mar 19, 8:59 am, Chris wrote:
On Mar 19, 12:49 am, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote:

An army of 100,000 could easily turn out 1000 barges a day!
Low skill labor, I could organize that.

Man, Ken, you are really unlucky. If you had been born in the 1760's
you would have been a *superstar.* You see, in the 1790's and 1800's
there were a lot of people trying to build lots blue water hulls for
some big wars they had going on at the time. They thought, because of
their hundreds of years of accumulated experience and lifetimes spent
actually building ships, that it required a great deal of time,
specialized materials and highly skilled labor demanding large wages.
If only you had been there with your experience gained doing something
completely different as a hobby, you could have shown them the errors
of their ways. Any navy would have been thrilled with your ability to
produce a sloop or frigate type hull with a hundred unskilled workers
in a single day.
Chris Manteuffel

The Vikings were building sea worthy boats in 900AD,
(I've designed and built boats and helped others do that),
I think Germans could build a landing craft to cross the
ditch, I assigned 1000 man hours to build one, if ya can't
get that done, you deserve to lose the war, (oh yeah).
A 1000 barges a day (on average) covers logistics.
Ceasar and Normy had no problem in 0AD, then 1066AD,
if ya wanna toss dates, (cutie pie).

Beach head is a problem, but German 88's could seriously
impair a Brit counter-attack, and once the Nazi's get a farmers
field to do Me-109's, with air support from France, well things
would get hairy,
A few dozen farmers fields loading up with Me-109's, Stuka's.

I hear Hitler didn't trust Stalin, and figured Stalin would attack
Germany if Germany attacked England, who can you trust?
(in the good old days).
Hitler was more emotionally involved with strengthening the
Eastern front than attacking a ****y little island, as detailed
in Mein Kampf.
Ken

On Mar 19, 1:18*pm, Jim Wilkins wrote:
On Mar 19, 10:02*am, Jack Linthicum
wrote:

...
I would not call the ships sunk at Guadalcanal "shipping". They were
warships. Chicago, Quincy, Vincennes, Canberra and Astoria all Cruisers..

They were sunk by IJN gunfire in NIGHT battles where aircraft from
neither side participated. The Japanese Navy ruled the seas by night,
the Cactus Air Force by day, until the battleship Washington arrived.

From "Guadalcanal Diary"
"I found out later that there had been forty Japanese planes
attacking; that sixteen of these were shot down on the spot, and the
remaining twenty-four destroyed by our fighters, one by one, as they
streaked for home. The Japanese torpedo bombers had not gone after the
warships, contenting themselves with merely strafing the transports as
they passed by."

One transport, the George F. Elliot, was hit by a crashing plane and
lost.

So you were a CIA analyst???

jsw

What does being a CIA analyst have to do with the ships that were
sunk? I saw a movie at OCS on the superiority of the Japanese at night
fighting that didn't bother to mention that a burning ship provided
light for their attack and precluded the Allies seeing that attack as
it developed.

By the way, which of these battles featured Japanese aircraft sinking
"shipping"?

"Ken S. Tucker" wrote in message
...


I read that Brit's used biplanes carrying torpedoes to get Bismarck,
Brits practically invented torpedoing ships from air.
Nazi torps were likely better than the Brits torps any brit stuff in
the
channel would be luftwaffe fodder, japs proved that.
The notion of using expensive a/c (bombers, spits, whatever) to sink
a channel barge(s) in light of Luftwaffe air superiority is near
suicidal.

Air superiority did not exist. During July 1940 the Luftwaffe made a
series of attacks on channel convoys, the results were disappointing.
Not only did they fail to achieve any serious impact on the convoys
but they suffered serious losses.

CASUALTIES FOR JULY

R.A.F. Fighter Command

Hurricane: 33 destroyed, 17 damaged
Pilots: 23 killed, 0 missing, 11 wounded

Spitfi 34 destroyed, 24 damaged
Pilots: 25 killed, 0 missing, 9 wounded

Blenheim: 4 destroyed, 1 damaged
Crew: 9 killed, 0 missing, 1 wounded

Defiant: 6 destroyed, 1 damaged
Crew: 10 killed, 0 missing, 2 wounded

TOTAL AIRCRAFT: 77 destroyed, 43 damaged
TOTAL PERSONNEL: 67 killed, 0 missing, 23 wounded

The Luftwaffe
Dornier Do 17: 39 destroyed, 13 damaged
Personnel: 30 killed, 74 missing, 19 wounded

Heinkel He 111: 32 destroyed, 3 damaged
Personnel: 52 killed, 85 missing, 6 wounded

Junkers Ju 88: 39 destroyed, 11 damaged
Personnel: 52 killed, 67 missing, 11 wounded

Junkers Ju 87: 13 destroyed, 11 damaged
Personnel: 10 killed, 12 missing, 3 wounded

Messerschmitt Bf 109: 48 destroyed, 14 damaged
Personnel: 17 killed, 14 missing, 13 wounded

Messerschmitt Bf 110: 18 destroyed, 4 damaged
Personnel: 13 killed, 17 missing, 2 wounded

Other: 27 destroyed, 1 damaged
Personnel: 19 killed, 33 missing, 15 wounded

TOTAL AIRCRAFT: 216 destroyed, 57 damaged
TOTAL PERSONNEL: 193 killed, 302 missing, 69 wounded
Peter G. Cooksley The Battle of Britain Ian Allan 1990

As for the barges the RAF simply attacked them in port.
Many were sunk at anchor which caused significant damage
to the German war economy.

Keith

On Mar 19, 1:18*pm, Jim Wilkins wrote:
On Mar 19, 10:02*am, Jack Linthicum
wrote:

...
I would not call the ships sunk at Guadalcanal "shipping". They were
warships. Chicago, Quincy, Vincennes, Canberra and Astoria all Cruisers..

They were sunk by IJN gunfire in NIGHT battles where aircraft from
neither side participated. The Japanese Navy ruled the seas by night,
the Cactus Air Force by day, until the battleship Washington arrived.

From "Guadalcanal Diary"
"I found out later that there had been forty Japanese planes
attacking; that sixteen of these were shot down on the spot, and the
remaining twenty-four destroyed by our fighters, one by one, as they
streaked for home. The Japanese torpedo bombers had not gone after the
warships, contenting themselves with merely strafing the transports as
they passed by."

One transport, the George F. Elliot, was hit by a crashing plane and
lost.

So you were a CIA analyst???

jsw

Atlanta, Chicago, Canberra, Quincy, Vincennes and Juneau were
torpedoed. What is your expertise?

The torpedoes were the Type 93, a six thousand pound bulk launched
from a surface ship.