"Vanishing American Air Superiority"

On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 19:46:13 -0000, "Keith Willshaw"
wrote:



"Dean" wrote in message
...
On Mar 19, 1:28 pm, Bill Kambic wrote:
On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 05:53:42 -0700 (PDT), Jack Linthicum

wrote:
Look up "Mulberry"

I know what a "Mulberry" was. I also know that they were part of a
solution. What was the rest of it?

Capturing Cherbourg.

That was part of it but until a port was captured and repaired the
allies relied on a combination of Mulberry harbours and landing supplies
on the beach. The allies used large numbers of specialist landing craft and
landing ships along with the DUKW amphibious trucks.

The Germans had none of these methods available in 1940.

Thank you, thank you, thank you. :-)

There's the crux of the matter. The Allies in '44 had THOUSANDS of
small, specfifically designed ships that could support land forces by
delivering supplies acrross a beach. Or at a quay. They could make
multiple trips. They had (at least at the LST level) limited self
defense capability. And until Antwep was captured and put back into
service they were the lifeline for the Allied armies.

Excatly how many LSTs were in the KM order of battle? Or any other
ship of similar capability? How many Mulberries did the KM have? How
many miles of undersea petrolium piping could they lay to deliver fuel
to their forces?

If the Germans had invaded they would have had about 48 hours to win
or they would have had to either withdraw of die slowly of starvation.
The "logistics tail" to support any sort of extended campaign did not
exist.

On Mar 20, 8:21*am, Bill Kambic wrote:
On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 19:46:13 -0000, "Keith Willshaw"



wrote:

"Dean" wrote in message
....
On Mar 19, 1:28 pm, Bill Kambic wrote:
On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 05:53:42 -0700 (PDT), Jack Linthicum

wrote:
Look up "Mulberry"

I know what a "Mulberry" was. *I also know that they were part of a
solution. *What was the rest of it?

Capturing Cherbourg.

That was part of it but until a port was captured and repaired the
allies relied on a combination of Mulberry harbours and landing supplies
on the beach. The allies used large numbers of specialist *landing craft and
landing ships along with the DUKW amphibious trucks.

The Germans had none of these methods available in 1940.

Thank you, thank you, thank you. *:-)

There's the crux of the matter. *The Allies in '44 had THOUSANDS of
small, specfifically designed ships that could support land forces by
delivering supplies acrross a beach. *Or at a quay. *They could make
multiple trips. *They had (at least at the LST level) limited self
defense capability. *And until Antwep was captured and put back into
service they were the lifeline for the Allied armies.

Excatly how many LSTs were in the KM order of battle? *Or any other
ship of similar capability? *How many Mulberries did the KM have? *How
many miles of undersea petrolium piping could they lay to deliver fuel
to their forces?

If the Germans had invaded they would have had about 48 hours to win
or they would have had to either withdraw of die slowly of starvation.
The "logistics tail" to support any sort of extended campaign did not
exist.

It was just a little wider river crossing, no need for special ships.
Peter Fleming mentions the use of railroad ferries to bring the tanks,
other methods like "Dr. Feder-type concrete barges" and Krupp's
"Lendkreuzer".


"Another unlikely project was a proposal by Gottfried Feder, a Nazi
official who was a civil engineer by training, to create what he
called a "war crocodile" for use in the anticipated invasion of
England. Feder's brainchild, as described in Ronald Wheatley's 1958
book Operation Sea Lion: German Plans for the Invasion of England,
1939-1942, was a an immense amphibious blockhouse of ungainly
proportions - 90 feet long, 20 feet wide, and 12 feet high-made of
concrete, which could move across the water under its own power and
then crawl ashore on caterpillar tracks to disgorge either 200
soldiers or tanks and artillery. The German Naval Ordinance Office had
serious doubts about whether the crocodile's slender concrete body
would withstand the vibration of an engine powerful enough to move it,
but nevertheless, according to William Shirer's 1960 book The Rise and
Fall of the Third Reich, the crocodile actually was discussed at
length by Hitler himself before being discarded.

German arms maker Krupp dreamed up another immense vehicle, the
Landkreuzer P. 1500 Monster, by placing an 800 mm Dora artillery
cannon-the sort normally towed on a railway car-atop a giant tank
chassis powered by two to four U-Boat engines. The Monster, as
described in My Tank is Fight! Zack Parsons', Mike Doscher's, and Josh
Hass' 2006 book on improbable World War II weapons, would have weighed
in at 2,500 metric tons, served by a crew of 100, and plodded along
the battlefield at six to nine miles an hour-making it a pathetically
easy target for Allied aircraft. Albert Speer, the Nazi minister for
armaments and war production, worried that the Monster's sheer size
would appeal to Hitler, and reportedly forbade Krupp to build a
prototype."

http://naziscienceliveson.devhub.com/blog/2009/06/

On Mar 20, 8:21*am, Bill Kambic wrote:
On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 19:46:13 -0000, "Keith Willshaw"
...

If the Germans had invaded they would have had about 48 hours to win
or they would have had to either withdraw of die slowly of starvation.
The "logistics tail" to support any sort of extended campaign did not
exist.

Britain had excellent first-hand knowledge of an inadequately planned,
operated and supported invasion:
http://www.battle-fleet.com/pw/his/gallipoli_ww1.htm
It's said that the loser learns more than the victor and that seems to
have been the case between World Wars 1 and 2.

The US had the advantage of unimportant islands to bungle a few
invasions on and learn the right way to do them, though at a high
cost.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tarawa

jsw

In article ,
Chris wrote:
On Mar 19, 6:34*am, Alexander dribbled on the
keyboard:

naught but noise


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Word_salad

http://www.dickgaughan.co.uk/usenet/...aq07-fwit.html

seems more apposite in this case.

As, indeed, is the linked FAQ:

ttp://www.dickgaughan.co.uk/usenet/guide/fwit-faq.html

--
Andy Breen, not speaking on behalf of the University of Wales
"The internet, that wonderful tool for bringing us into contact
with things that make us wish we could scrub our brains out with
dental floss.." (Charlie Stross)

Alexander wrote:


Well now given that Hitler denounced Hess on German radio BEFORE
Hess had chance to meet anyone this seems an odd conclusion.

You have your dates wrong. Hitler denounced Hess after the betrayal by
Churchill.

Hitler gave orders to shoot Hess down before he left German air space.


There is no way Hess would have traveled to Scotland without
an invitation by Churchill and the express wishes of the Nazi party.


Do you have any proof of any of this nonsense?

There should be some documentation somewhere and I very much doubt that
file would still be secret.


Churchill never wavered in his opposition to the Nazis, change your
medication
there's a good chap.

Churchill was a Political schill. His ****ups during WWI got him the
eventual sack. But you royalty loving buttocks reinstated him for WWII.
Sadly him and Mounty were the best you people could front. The only
leadership worse was the French. Actually you limeys were the prime
ignitors of that war. You just kept prodding Hitler with the Polish
corridor and we all paid the price. Of course the Jewish death grip on
the German economy created their own nemeses in the form of the Nazi
party and Adolph Hitler&troupe.

Ah.

You're still insane...

--
William Black

"Any number under six"

The answer given by Englishman Richard Peeke when asked by the Duke of
Medina Sidonia how many Spanish sword and buckler men he could beat
single handed with a quarterstaff.

Ken S. Tucker wrote:
On Mar 18, 12:36 am, "William Black"
wrote:
"Ken S. Tucker" wrote in ...

I think the source is reliable, my Old Boy was a WW2 vet spook who
had more access to info than any historian will ever get, and
explained
it to me.
My my, someone on the BIGOT list and who had access to ULTRA.
That's about a dozen people below general officer rank.
Shouldn't be too hard to identify him.
That said, I don't want to play 'what if' games, ok.

Not sure about the "BIGOT" acronym, a

Why am I not surprised...

It's not an acronym, it's a code word.


After 2-3 years he wrote a stack of reports that would fill a filing
cabinet, probably still classified.

Oh no they won't be.

He had access to everything, as you can imagine, but the only
person he'd talk to about it was me, and only at the cottage we
built when we were alone, after drinking he'd loosen up a bit, but
he was always careful about what he said.

Nobody except the heads of state and the joint chiefs committee had
access to everything.

Many commanders in chief weren't given ULTRA access.

Have you considered reading a book?

Which book did you read?

Start with Churchill.


The Brits, had a few rifles left after Dunkirk, 2 or 3.
Paint a few hundred barges black and gliders too, move out at 10 or
11 pm, and by 5 am the king is being raped in the ass by Nazi's.
As I said, no sweat.
Aren't we forgetting someone?
This being a naval group and all...

The RN was pretty much useless, recall Pearl Harbor,

Recall Taranto and Cape Matapan...

suppose the
Nazi's
float a bunch of cheap boats, the RN responds and the Luftwaff
would've put
a lot of iron in the channel.
Barges are ultra cheap, especially when they're empty.

And so easy to sink, especially at night.

Now look up how good the Germans were at sinking ships with bombs at
that date.


Oh yes, and assuming they do land. How on earth do they get over the
Military Canal in a night?

40 miles = 8 x 5, how long is a night?
(please don't tell me I need to prove math).

You don't know what the Military Canal is do you?


--
William Black

"Any number under six"

The answer given by Englishman Richard Peeke when asked by the Duke of
Medina Sidonia how many Spanish sword and buckler men he could beat
single handed with a quarterstaff.

Alexander wrote:


And here you sit in America. the country that took the P51 from a mere
thought to design and production in less then 90 days.

Contract NA-73X was laid in March 1940.

First combat use, by the RAF, (the aircraft was designed for the
British not the USAAF) was in May 1942.

They used an extant engine design...

I wonder where they got that from...


--
William Black

"Any number under six"

The answer given by Englishman Richard Peeke when asked by the Duke of
Medina Sidonia how many Spanish sword and buckler men he could beat
single handed with a quarterstaff.

Ken S. Tucker wrote:
On Mar 18, 2:59 pm, Chris wrote:
On Mar 18, 2:47 pm, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote:

The RN was pretty much useless, recall Pearl Harbor, suppose the
This feels like I'm being punked, but let's go ahead and treat this as
a real argument.

If you are trying to say that airplanes will surely sink the RN and
allow Sealion to continue because a lot of ships were sunk at Pearl
Harbor, then your argument fails.

The Imperial Japanese Navy attacked Pearl Harbor. They would not be
involved in a Sealion invasion.

What you need to understand is that the IJN was the best in the world
at sinking ships at this time. The period from before Pearl Harbor
through to the middle of the Guadalcanal campaign or so is their high
water mark. Saying that because the Japanese in that time frame could
sink a lot of ships in a few hours (especially when they are
obligingly stationary in port during daylight) therefore the Germans
could to (at night while steaming at 20+ knots) is like saying that
because LeBron James and the Cleveland Cavaliers beat the Lakers, me
and my friend's who play pick-up basketball will too (even if we give
them a 15 point head start) .

Let's do a quick comparison of the Luftwaffe (and this is mighty
Fliegerkorps X a year later, specially trained for attacking ships-
but not in September 1940) and the IJN. During the evacuation of Crete
HMS Fiji and HMS Gloucester operated inside Luftwaffe air range for
over two days, with no fighter support, and were only sunk when the
two cruisers ran out of AA ammo. During Operation C the Kido Butai's
dive bombers (the torpedo bombers held their weapons, hoping for
better targets) put HMS Cornwall and HMS Dorsetshire both underwater
within a half-hour of the first bomb falling.

That is the level of difference we are talking about between the
Japanese and the Germans: an order of magnitude in effectiveness. And
then factor in the difference between hitting ships that are moving
and hitting ships that are berthed in port, and I begin to suspect
that you are not fully serious with this argument.

Nazi's
float a bunch of cheap boats, the RN responds and the Luftwaffe
Were would they get these cheap boats? They didn't have enough to
carry their invasion force, even by essentially ending all river
traffic and causing significant economic dislocation (in particular,
coal transport was seriously curtailed, meaning that steel production
was way down- see Tooze, _Wages of Destruction_). Barges were critical
for German economic activity, and they didn't have enough (largely
because Hitler had focused on other things, allowing most of the
transportation infrastructure to degrade severely- the Reichsbahn
suffered quite badly too).

I am leaning towards the conclusion that this argument of yours must
be some sort of elaborate hoax, though I am at a loss as to the
purpose.
Chris Manteuffel

As a hobby I build houses, cottages and track vehicles, here's pix,

http://www.flickr.com/photos/dynamics/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/3515661...7616995388478/

that's for fun.

I have some news.

They're NOT tanks...


--
William Black

"Any number under six"

The answer given by Englishman Richard Peeke when asked by the Duke of
Medina Sidonia how many Spanish sword and buckler men he could beat
single handed with a quarterstaff.

Alexander wrote:
Actually Kaiser of America built thousands of liberty ships out of
Fero-concrete. Diesel Engine dropped in minutes

Welded steel and fuel oil fired triple expansion engines.

--
William Black

"Any number under six"

The answer given by Englishman Richard Peeke when asked by the Duke of
Medina Sidonia how many Spanish sword and buckler men he could beat
single handed with a quarterstaff.

Alexander wrote:

Willie read the Talmud.. You know the book that gives people like Willie
the right to be superior to Gentiles.


It's very hard not to to feel superior to you.


--
William Black

"Any number under six"

The answer given by Englishman Richard Peeke when asked by the Duke of
Medina Sidonia how many Spanish sword and buckler men he could beat
single handed with a quarterstaff.