"Vanishing American Air Superiority"

On Mar 20, 3:43*pm, Andrew Chaplin
wrote:
William Black wrote :



Ken S. Tucker wrote:
On Mar 20, 10:21 am, William Black
wrote:

It's not an acronym, *it's a code word.

Well I missed that memo.

You're not kidding.

After 2-3 years he wrote a stack of reports that would fill a
filing cabinet, probably still classified.
Oh no they won't be.

In canuckistan it's secret or once declassified it's burned, didn't
you
get the memo.

********.

It's filed away and released when of no interest to anyone but
historians.

Exactly.

My father's last post before retirement was as the Senior Research
Officer in the Directorate of History of NDHQ in Ottawa from about *'71
to '82. One of his secondary duties was directorate security officer. As
such, he was responsible for more classified documents than anyone else
in NDHQ, and he, under the instructions of the Director, controled access
to every classifed document in RG24 at the National Archives. They had
tonnes of documents in 600 filing cabinets and safes in the Ogilvie Annex
of NDHQ, and every six months he had to go through a classified document
muster.

My father's magnum opus in his last years was to help draft the Access to
Information Act's declassification sections. He did it with a view to
releasing as much as possible as soon as possible, because he knew that
keeping secrets is expensive. However, he knew that some secrets might
have to be kept forever. (I suspect that the "forever" secrets have more
to do with our allies than our erstwhile enemies.)

Many commanders in chief weren't given ULTRA access.

Old Boy told me he was a corporal,

So he didn't actually have any access at all.

Corporals working on BIGOT material likely only handled envelopes and
folders, or PA'ed documents to file and little else.

I presume said personel were ordered to provide full
cooperation, so he wouldn't need to give a rat's ass about ULTRA,
except how effective it was, to feedback into the chain of command,
his duties in that respect were more than clerical.

You mean he was an intelligence clerk.

Tucker appears to have woven an old boy's yarn into whole cloth.

RCAF trained him for a year in Pathfinder Navigation prior to making
him a de-briefer,

Not a chance.

Anyone the RCAF took the trouble to train as a navigator went on to
flying duties--unless he washed out for medical or other reasons.

Aircrew were all promoted to sergeant on selection.

and navigation involves a lot of secret stuff, so he
likely ended up knowing more about ULTRA than ULTRA did,

Take it from me, *anyone selected for aircrew training wouldn't have
been allowed within a mile of ULTRA

And any secret stuff people on flying duties saw had a very, very short
shelf life.



*where
results are concerned, and then write a synopsis for strategists,
based on de-briefing from fielded and experienced personel.

Corporals don't.

Barges are ultra cheap, especially when they're empty.
And so easy to sink, *especially at night.

But look at what you're risking, to sink a cheap barge.

Barges son, *barges...

Now look up how good the Germans were at sinking ships with bombs at
that date.

As good or better than anyone.

Nope.

They had some real problems sinking anything. *They could hit some
stuff standing still, *but at Dunkirk, bombing stationary ships, their
performance was dreadful.

You don't know what the Military Canal is do you?
Mr. Black

Well we had lakefront property on Lk Ontario, the Englosh Channel is
what
the girls liked to swim across too.

The Military Canal is not the Channel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Military_Canal

It's not getting into it, *it's getting out.

You're getting a good demonstration of how resistant Canadian brick
masonry is to logic, William.
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)

Never underestimate the power of the EM's mess and the Club to
circulate all of the material that is handled so carefully, out into
the civilian access area. Corporals make flight schedules and arrange
meetings and sometimes are given the minutes of the previous meeting
and the outline of the next. Not really classified, above your office
level, but informative to one who hears things in the office to fill
in the gaps.

On Sat, 20 Mar 2010 05:36:15 -0700 (PDT), Jack Linthicum
wrote:


It was just a little wider river crossing, no need for special ships.
Peter Fleming mentions the use of railroad ferries to bring the tanks,
other methods like "Dr. Feder-type concrete barges" and Krupp's
"Lendkreuzer".

Lubber's thinking.

"Another unlikely project was a proposal by Gottfried Feder, a Nazi
official who was a civil engineer by training, to create what he
called a "war crocodile" for use in the anticipated invasion of
England. Feder's brainchild, as described in Ronald Wheatley's 1958
book Operation Sea Lion: German Plans for the Invasion of England,
1939-1942, was a an immense amphibious blockhouse of ungainly
proportions - 90 feet long, 20 feet wide, and 12 feet high-made of
concrete, which could move across the water under its own power and
then crawl ashore on caterpillar tracks to disgorge either 200
soldiers or tanks and artillery. The German Naval Ordinance Office had
serious doubts about whether the crocodile's slender concrete body
would withstand the vibration of an engine powerful enough to move it,
but nevertheless, according to William Shirer's 1960 book The Rise and
Fall of the Third Reich, the crocodile actually was discussed at
length by Hitler himself before being discarded.

German arms maker Krupp dreamed up another immense vehicle, the
Landkreuzer P. 1500 Monster, by placing an 800 mm Dora artillery
cannon-the sort normally towed on a railway car-atop a giant tank
chassis powered by two to four U-Boat engines. The Monster, as
described in My Tank is Fight! Zack Parsons', Mike Doscher's, and Josh
Hass' 2006 book on improbable World War II weapons, would have weighed
in at 2,500 metric tons, served by a crew of 100, and plodded along
the battlefield at six to nine miles an hour-making it a pathetically
easy target for Allied aircraft. Albert Speer, the Nazi minister for
armaments and war production, worried that the Monster's sheer size
would appeal to Hitler, and reportedly forbade Krupp to build a
prototype."

http://naziscienceliveson.devhub.com/blog/2009/06/

Tell me again about how they were going to build these devices, get
them into position, move them accross the water, and then support the
troops they had in them? All without opposition?

On Mar 20, 4:03*pm, Bill Kambic wrote:
On Sat, 20 Mar 2010 05:36:15 -0700 (PDT), Jack Linthicum

wrote:
It was just a little wider river crossing, no need for special ships.
Peter Fleming mentions the use of railroad ferries to bring the tanks,
other methods like "Dr. Feder-type concrete barges" and Krupp's
"Lendkreuzer".

Lubber's thinking.



"Another unlikely project was a proposal by Gottfried Feder, a Nazi
official who was a civil engineer by training, to create what he
called a "war crocodile" for use in the anticipated invasion of
England. Feder's brainchild, as described in Ronald Wheatley's 1958
book Operation Sea Lion: German Plans for the Invasion of England,
1939-1942, was a an immense amphibious blockhouse of ungainly
proportions - 90 feet long, 20 feet wide, and 12 feet high-made of
concrete, which could move across the water under its own power and
then crawl ashore on caterpillar tracks to disgorge either 200
soldiers or tanks and artillery. The German Naval Ordinance Office had
serious doubts about whether the crocodile's slender concrete body
would withstand the vibration of an engine powerful enough to move it,
but nevertheless, according to William Shirer's 1960 book The Rise and
Fall of the Third Reich, the crocodile actually was discussed at
length by Hitler himself before being discarded.

German arms maker Krupp dreamed up another immense vehicle, the
Landkreuzer P. 1500 Monster, by placing an 800 mm Dora artillery
cannon-the sort normally towed on a railway car-atop a giant tank
chassis powered by two to four U-Boat engines. The Monster, as
described in My Tank is Fight! Zack Parsons', Mike Doscher's, and Josh
Hass' 2006 book on improbable World War II weapons, would have weighed
in at 2,500 metric tons, served by a crew of 100, and plodded along
the battlefield at six to nine miles an hour-making it a pathetically
easy target for Allied aircraft. Albert Speer, the Nazi minister for
armaments and war production, worried that the Monster's sheer size
would appeal to Hitler, and reportedly forbade Krupp to build a
prototype."

http://naziscienceliveson.devhub.com/blog/2009/06/

Tell me again about how they were going to build these devices, get
them into position, move them accross the water, and then support the
troops they had in them? *All without opposition?

I think we are missing the point. There never was going to be a German
invasion if they did not continue on from Dunkirk right across the
channel and land as many men as they could get across. A sort of
reverse of Dynamo, although that doesn't sound too good either. It
probably wouldn't have been a success but it might have stirred the
British Parliament into some sort of truce or armistice.

Jack Linthicum wrote:

Never underestimate the power of the EM's mess and the Club to
circulate all of the material that is handled so carefully, out into
the civilian access area. Corporals make flight schedules and arrange
meetings and sometimes are given the minutes of the previous meeting
and the outline of the next. Not really classified, above your office
level, but informative to one who hears things in the office to fill
in the gaps.

This guy is supposed to know EVERYTHING.

Including how the UK didn't have a chance...

--
William Black

"Any number under six"

The answer given by Englishman Richard Peeke when asked by the Duke of
Medina Sidonia how many Spanish sword and buckler men he could beat
single handed with a quarterstaff.

On Sat, 20 Mar 2010 18:15:10 +0000, "Paul J. Adam"
wrote:

In message , William Black
writes
Alexander wrote:
That has already been answered. Move on.

Well, no it hasn't.

How do you defeat the Royal Navy?

Magic pixies with ship destroying oofle dust?

The Germans have a plan. Their chief weapon is a cunning plan...a
cunning plan and cool uniforms...cunning plan and shiny jackboots....
Their two weapons are a cunning plan and their nifty uniforms...and
their ruthless Teutonic efficiency.... Their *three* weapons are a
cunning plan, cool uniforms, and ruthless efficiency...and an almost
fanatical devotion to the Fuhrer.... their *four*...no... *Amongst*
their weapons.... Amongst their weaponry...are such elements as cunning
plans, smart uniforms.... I'll come in again?

I thought Monty was a British general.

Peter Skelton

Peter Skelton wrote:
On Sat, 20 Mar 2010 18:15:10 +0000, "Paul J. Adam"
wrote:

In message , William Black
writes
Alexander wrote:
That has already been answered. Move on.
Well, no it hasn't.

How do you defeat the Royal Navy?

Magic pixies with ship destroying oofle dust?
The Germans have a plan. Their chief weapon is a cunning plan...a
cunning plan and cool uniforms...cunning plan and shiny jackboots....
Their two weapons are a cunning plan and their nifty uniforms...and
their ruthless Teutonic efficiency.... Their *three* weapons are a
cunning plan, cool uniforms, and ruthless efficiency...and an almost
fanatical devotion to the Fuhrer.... their *four*...no... *Amongst*
their weapons.... Amongst their weaponry...are such elements as cunning
plans, smart uniforms.... I'll come in again?

I thought Monty was a British general.

Peter Skelton

Monty thought so too.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

On Mar 20, 12:04 pm, William Black
wrote:
Ken S. Tucker wrote:
On Mar 20, 10:21 am, William Black
wrote:
It's not an acronym, it's a code word.

Well I missed that memo.

You're not kidding.

It's a habit, learning to not read unimportant junk, you know.

After 2-3 years he wrote a stack of reports that would fill a filing
cabinet, probably still classified.
Oh no they won't be.

In canuckistan it's secret or once declassified it's burned, didn't
you
get the memo.

********.

It's filed away and released when of no interest to anyone but historians.

Nope, contrary to what Mr. Chaplin reports, it's burn after reading.
only the low level crap is available for his daddy, thoughts clear.
He don't know spooks, I'll provide a hint, from this link,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_X

"Records pertaining to Camp X were either locked away under the
Official Secrets Act
or destroyed after World War II."

"locked away" or "destroyed", what does that mean?


Many commanders in chief weren't given ULTRA access.

Old Boy told me he was a corporal,

So he didn't actually have any access at all.

I presume said personel were ordered to provide full

cooperation, so he wouldn't need to give a rat's ass about ULTRA,
except how effective it was, to feedback into the chain of command,
his duties in that respect were more than clerical.

You mean he was an intelligence clerk.

That's close but not quite, he had girl's, booze and cigs to relax the
men in order to report what they learned

RCAF trained him for a year in Pathfinder Navigation prior to making
him a de-briefer

Not a chance.
Aircrew were all promoted to sergeant on selection.

Why would ya need to be sergeant for de-briefing?
Ya don't understood the de-briefer rank.

, and navigation involves a lot of secret stuff, so he
likely ended up knowing more about ULTRA than ULTRA did,

Take it from me, anyone selected for aircrew training wouldn't have
been allowed within a mile of ULTRA

where

results are concerned, and then write a synopsis for strategists,
based on de-briefing from fielded and experienced personel.

Corporals don't.

Well I guess them guys choose Corporal rank as it is a confidential,
nobody would tell an a officer squat, cuz they will rat ya out,
whereas a Corporal won't, SOP.

Barges are ultra cheap, especially when they're empty.
And so easy to sink, especially at night.

But look at what you're risking, to sink a cheap barge.

Barges son, barges...

Now look up how good the Germans were at sinking ships with bombs at
that date.

As good or better than anyone.

Nope.

They had some real problems sinking anything. They could hit some stuff
standing still, but at Dunkirk, bombing stationary ships, their
performance was dreadful.

Well the Nazi's didn't expect the Brit's to run away so fast, so they
weren't prepared for that contingency, is that what you mean?

You don't know what the Military Canal is do you?
Mr. Black

Well we had lakefront property on Lk Ontario, the Englosh Channel is
what
the girls liked to swim across too.

The Military Canal is not the Channel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Military_Canal

It's not getting into it, it's getting out.
Mr. Black

Yup.
Ken

On Mar 20, 5:53*pm, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote:
On Mar 20, 12:04 pm, William Black
wrote:

Ken S. Tucker wrote:
On Mar 20, 10:21 am, William Black
wrote:
It's not an acronym, *it's a code word.

Well I missed that memo.

You're not kidding.

It's a habit, learning to not read unimportant junk, you know.

After 2-3 years he wrote a stack of reports that would fill a filing
cabinet, probably still classified.
Oh no they won't be.

In canuckistan it's secret or once declassified it's burned, didn't
you
get the memo.

********.

It's filed away and released when of no interest to anyone but historians.

Nope, contrary to what Mr. Chaplin reports, it's burn after reading.
only the low level crap is available for his daddy, thoughts clear.
He don't know spooks, I'll provide a hint, from this link,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_X

"Records pertaining to Camp X were either locked away under the
Official Secrets Act
or destroyed after World War II."

"locked away" or "destroyed", what does that mean?

Many commanders in chief weren't given ULTRA access.

Old Boy told me he was a corporal,

So he didn't actually have any access at all.

I presume said personel were ordered to provide full

cooperation, so he wouldn't need to give a rat's ass about ULTRA,
except how effective it was, to feedback into the chain of command,
his duties in that respect were more than clerical.

You mean he was an intelligence clerk.

That's close but not quite, he had girl's, booze and cigs to relax the
men in order to report what they learned

RCAF trained him for a year in Pathfinder Navigation prior to making
him a de-briefer

Not a chance.
Aircrew were all promoted to sergeant on selection.

Why would ya need to be sergeant for de-briefing?
Ya don't understood the de-briefer rank.

, and navigation involves a lot of secret stuff, so he
likely ended up knowing more about ULTRA than ULTRA did,

Take it from me, *anyone selected for aircrew training wouldn't have
been allowed within a mile of ULTRA

* where

results are concerned, and then write a synopsis for strategists,
based on de-briefing from fielded and experienced personel.

Corporals don't.

Well I guess them guys choose Corporal rank as it is a confidential,
nobody would tell an a officer squat, cuz they will rat ya out,
whereas a Corporal won't, SOP.



Barges are ultra cheap, especially when they're empty.
And so easy to sink, *especially at night.

But look at what you're risking, to sink a cheap barge.

Barges son, *barges...

Now look up how good the Germans were at sinking ships with bombs at
that date.

As good or better than anyone.

Nope.

They had some real problems sinking anything. *They could hit some stuff
standing still, *but at Dunkirk, bombing stationary ships, their
performance was dreadful.

Well the Nazi's didn't expect the Brit's to run away so fast, so they
weren't prepared for that contingency, is that what you mean?

You don't know what the Military Canal is do you?
Mr. Black

Well we had lakefront property on Lk Ontario, the Englosh Channel is
what
the girls liked to swim across too.

The Military Canal is not the Channel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Military_Canal

It's not getting into it, *it's getting out.
Mr. Black

Yup.
Ken

It's "burn before reading" for the important stuff

Jack Linthicum wrote:
On Mar 20, 5:53 pm, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote:
On Mar 20, 12:04 pm, William Black
wrote:

Ken S. Tucker wrote:
On Mar 20, 10:21 am, William Black
wrote:
It's not an acronym, it's a code word.
Well I missed that memo.
You're not kidding.
It's a habit, learning to not read unimportant junk, you know.

After 2-3 years he wrote a stack of reports that would fill a filing
cabinet, probably still classified.
Oh no they won't be.
In canuckistan it's secret or once declassified it's burned, didn't
you
get the memo.
********.
It's filed away and released when of no interest to anyone but historians.
Nope, contrary to what Mr. Chaplin reports, it's burn after reading.
only the low level crap is available for his daddy, thoughts clear.
He don't know spooks, I'll provide a hint, from this link,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_X

"Records pertaining to Camp X were either locked away under the
Official Secrets Act
or destroyed after World War II."

"locked away" or "destroyed", what does that mean?

Many commanders in chief weren't given ULTRA access.
Old Boy told me he was a corporal,
So he didn't actually have any access at all.
I presume said personel were ordered to provide full
cooperation, so he wouldn't need to give a rat's ass about ULTRA,
except how effective it was, to feedback into the chain of command,
his duties in that respect were more than clerical.
You mean he was an intelligence clerk.
That's close but not quite, he had girl's, booze and cigs to relax the
men in order to report what they learned

RCAF trained him for a year in Pathfinder Navigation prior to making
him a de-briefer
Not a chance.
Aircrew were all promoted to sergeant on selection.
Why would ya need to be sergeant for de-briefing?
Ya don't understood the de-briefer rank.

, and navigation involves a lot of secret stuff, so he
likely ended up knowing more about ULTRA than ULTRA did,
Take it from me, anyone selected for aircrew training wouldn't have
been allowed within a mile of ULTRA
where
results are concerned, and then write a synopsis for strategists,
based on de-briefing from fielded and experienced personel.
Corporals don't.
Well I guess them guys choose Corporal rank as it is a confidential,
nobody would tell an a officer squat, cuz they will rat ya out,
whereas a Corporal won't, SOP.



Barges are ultra cheap, especially when they're empty.
And so easy to sink, especially at night.
But look at what you're risking, to sink a cheap barge.
Barges son, barges...
Now look up how good the Germans were at sinking ships with bombs at
that date.
As good or better than anyone.
Nope.
They had some real problems sinking anything. They could hit some stuff
standing still, but at Dunkirk, bombing stationary ships, their
performance was dreadful.
Well the Nazi's didn't expect the Brit's to run away so fast, so they
weren't prepared for that contingency, is that what you mean?

You don't know what the Military Canal is do you?
Mr. Black
Well we had lakefront property on Lk Ontario, the Englosh Channel is
what
the girls liked to swim across too.
The Military Canal is not the Channel.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Military_Canal
It's not getting into it, it's getting out.
Mr. Black
Yup.
Ken

It's "burn before reading" for the important stuff

The whole 'Camp X' and 'William Stephenson' pages on Wikipedia are full
of ghastly errors.

Stuff like Churchill being an opposition MP in 1936 and SOE being part
of MI-6.

It reads like a bad novel.

--
William Black

"Any number under six"

The answer given by Englishman Richard Peeke when asked by the Duke of
Medina Sidonia how many Spanish sword and buckler men he could beat
single handed with a quarterstaff.

Ken S. Tucker wrote:
On Mar 20, 12:04 pm, William Black
wrote:
snip

RCAF trained him for a year in Pathfinder Navigation prior to making
him a de-briefer
Not a chance.
Aircrew were all promoted to sergeant on selection.

Why would ya need to be sergeant for de-briefing?
Ya don't understood the de-briefer rank.

Do try to read for comprehension. If he had been accepted for
pathfinder navigation he would have been promoted to sergeant. If he had
then been sent back to ground ops as a corporal he must have been
washed out of school.

As to why you'd want a sergeant rather than corporal for debriefing
let me give you a modern analogy in the USAF. Debriefing air crews,
while supposed to be done by checklist, required experience on the part
of the debrief personnel. The USAF prefers 7 levels (think technician)
which requires the rank of staff sergeant (E-5). There's no such thing
as an E-4 7 level. Does this mean they don't use 5 levels to debrief?
No, but they aren't about to assign those with limited experience.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired