27 crash at Ely?

Same here. I’ve been hearing horror stories of severe upsets, pointing straight down to the rocks, and even completely upside down since I started flying and after 8000 hours of frequent flying in strong Great Basin conditions I feel I am long overdue. Maybe I am just lucky.
I did experience few times the drop on the back side of the ridge when doing one too many circles which certainly got my attention but I always had more than enough margin to recover, otherwise I don’t complete the circle.

Ramy

On Thursday, July 23, 2020 at 10:46:15 PM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
Same here. I’ve been hearing horror stories of severe upsets, pointing straight down to the rocks, and even completely upside down since I started flying and after 8000 hours of frequent flying in strong Great Basin conditions I feel I am long overdue. Maybe I am just lucky.
I did experience few times the drop on the back side of the ridge when doing one too many circles which certainly got my attention but I always had more than enough margin to recover, otherwise I don’t complete the circle.

Ramy

I was 14,000 feet over Antelope in Siskiyou County in my Nimbus 3 and my right wing was kicked up and I couldn't recover with aileron. I rolled on through and felt like I came out the bottom, glad I was at 14,000 feet.

GKemp NK

Someone once insisted there are “holes� in the air. I agree although I don’t think I ever hit a real one yet, especially not close to terrain, but I believe they are, and it is a matter of being at the wrong place at the wrong time, and perhaps at the wrong speed. Nearly every year we loose someone to these holes. Theoretically we can avoid bad fate by never fly close to terrain, but we know it is not possible to always do this if we want to be able to soar.

Ramy

gkemp wrote on 7/24/2020 8:02 AM:
On Thursday, July 23, 2020 at 10:46:15 PM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
Same here. I’ve been hearing horror stories of severe upsets, pointing straight down to the rocks, and even completely upside down since I started flying and after 8000 hours of frequent flying in strong Great Basin conditions I feel I am long overdue. Maybe I am just lucky.
I did experience few times the drop on the back side of the ridge when doing one too many circles which certainly got my attention but I always had more than enough margin to recover, otherwise I don’t complete the circle.

Ramy

I was 14,000 feet over Antelope in Siskiyou County in my Nimbus 3 and my right wing was kicked up and I couldn't recover with aileron. I rolled on through and felt like I came out the bottom, glad I was at 14,000 feet.

Wing tip vortex from an airliner going into Medford?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

Regarding un-commanded upsets, I’m surprised only two people have so far written to say they have experienced them. Flying out of Mifflin, I’ve had about ten 80+ degree rolls over the last 10 years. They were all on strong (30 kt) ridge days with a bit of wave about, mainly in mid-May, but also in mid-October. Most occurred on Bald Eagle, but some were also on Tussey and Jacks. They mainly happened several thousand feet above ridge top, when I was either climbing to get back to Mifflin, or just loitering until the crosswind subsided a bit.

This is how I described one such experience, which happened at the end of my Diamond Distance flight in October 2010: “As I flew into the FAI finish sector Doris Grove radioed me her congratulations, then told me that I needed to stay airborne for another hour or so, as it was too turbulent and windy to land. Thus began the worst hour of flight I’ve ever experienced. The thermals were vigorous and plentiful this late in the day, and they were combining with the wind to roil the air in a way I’d never seen before. Suddenly the left wing went down, rolling me towards the ridge, fortunately some 2,000 feet below. Full right aileron and full right rudder did nothing to stop the roll, and the bank kept getting steeper. After what seemed like an hour but was probably about 10 seconds, my LS-8 responded and rolled level. But twenty seconds later the process repeated, this time to the right. Rapid jolts shook us violently in between and during the un-commanded rolls. I was more passenger than pilot, in the uncaring grip of an extremely powerful Nature.�

I can categorically state that violent upsets can happen. On strong ridge days, especially when wave is around, I’ve found it prudent to stay well above the ridge top.

-John

------------------

On Thursday, July 23, 2020 at 9:06:49 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Nick Kennedy wrote on 7/23/2020 1:27 PM:
Just last Saturday flying out of Nephi Ut in the flats of the valley over Yuba Res I had a thermal kick me into a 80 degree bank.
Full roll control wasn't enough so I pushed to about .1 G and full ruddered it back level. I've done this about 100 times in my soaring career.

Wow! That's never happened to me! In 6000+ hours of flying all over North America
- never have I been pushed more than 20 degrees or so. Just luck can't explain
that difference, so I wonder what we are doing differently that I've never been in
danger, and you've been there 100 times.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

I've been upset on wave days in my Stemme.Â* Diving towards the leeward
slope of the mountains east of Albuquerque and pulling up when I felt a
bit of lift, the Stemme rolled uncontrollably to the right and the nose
started down.Â* I responded with forward stick and left aileron and
rudder.Â* The aircraft responded appropriately. This has happened more
than once but is not unexpected - just keep sufficient altitude for the
recovery.

On 7/25/2020 1:17 PM, John Carlyle wrote:
Regarding un-commanded upsets, I’m surprised only two people have so far written to say they have experienced them. Flying out of Mifflin, I’ve had about ten 80+ degree rolls over the last 10 years. They were all on strong (30 kt) ridge days with a bit of wave about, mainly in mid-May, but also in mid-October. Most occurred on Bald Eagle, but some were also on Tussey and Jacks. They mainly happened several thousand feet above ridge top, when I was either climbing to get back to Mifflin, or just loitering until the crosswind subsided a bit.

This is how I described one such experience, which happened at the end of my Diamond Distance flight in October 2010: “As I flew into the FAI finish sector Doris Grove radioed me her congratulations, then told me that I needed to stay airborne for another hour or so, as it was too turbulent and windy to land. Thus began the worst hour of flight I’ve ever experienced. The thermals were vigorous and plentiful this late in the day, and they were combining with the wind to roil the air in a way I’d never seen before. Suddenly the left wing went down, rolling me towards the ridge, fortunately some 2,000 feet below. Full right aileron and full right rudder did nothing to stop the roll, and the bank kept getting steeper. After what seemed like an hour but was probably about 10 seconds, my LS-8 responded and rolled level. But twenty seconds later the process repeated, this time to the right. Rapid jolts shook us violently in between and during the un-commanded rolls. I was more passenger than pilot, in the uncaring grip of an extremely powerful Nature.�

I can categorically state that violent upsets can happen. On strong ridge days, especially when wave is around, I’ve found it prudent to stay well above the ridge top.

-John

------------------

On Thursday, July 23, 2020 at 9:06:49 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Nick Kennedy wrote on 7/23/2020 1:27 PM:
Just last Saturday flying out of Nephi Ut in the flats of the valley over Yuba Res I had a thermal kick me into a 80 degree bank.
Full roll control wasn't enough so I pushed to about .1 G and full ruddered it back level. I've done this about 100 times in my soaring career.
Wow! That's never happened to me! In 6000+ hours of flying all over North America
- never have I been pushed more than 20 degrees or so. Just luck can't explain
that difference, so I wonder what we are doing differently that I've never been in
danger, and you've been there 100 times.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

--
Dan, 5J

On 7/25/2020 1:17 PM, John Carlyle wrote:
Regarding un-commanded upsets, I’m surprised only two people have so far
written to say they have experienced them. Flying out of Mifflin, I’ve had
about ten 80+ degree rolls over the last 10 years. They were all on strong
(30 kt) ridge days with a bit of wave about, mainly in mid-May, but also in
mid-October...

OK, I'll chime in here with some observations and thoughts...most of my stick
time gained in/above CO's Rocky Mountains out of Boulder.

Uncommanded rolls - my largest excursion was in rotor about halfway in from
the Front Range (CO) to the continental divide, easily estimated (from
instrument screws relative to the horizon) at 45-degrees, and counteracted by
hard (full?) opposite stick along with "a sustained (definitely!) full-rudder
stomp" by way of encouraging the down-swinging tip to reverse its motion. That
particular instance "got my attention" simply because: 1) it took a finite
amount of time to reach max-roll condition; and 2) I'd never rolled a plane
and had no desire to just then, despite thousands of feet of ground clearance.
15 meter 1st-generation glass.

Uncommanded pitch excursions - a tougher call in terms of "largest" simply
because - for most glider pilots - any "serious view of the ground" through
the forward canopy almost certainly feels like "going straight down, a claim
supported by ~2k hours in large-deflection-only flapped ships (no landing
spoilers) and plenty of "written stuff" seen in "Soaring" mag from pilots new
to 'em (particularly from "the Dick Schreder/HP-series" era. MY HP-14 had a
descent angle of an estimated 45-degrees along with an appropriately steep
nose-down angle in even the slightest headwind. I can't recall ever getting
uncommandedly pitched down to a similar degree, and the V-tailed HP was
peculiarly prone to pitching (generally smoothly) nose-down in the presence of
strong thermals.

Most violent air - my 1st microburst encounter. Seriously frightening/ugly!
Prolly a 50:50 crash/no-crash situation were I Tom Hanks in the movie
Groundhog Day. Duration was from ~2k'agl to ~3'agl, most of the time with me
unable to continuously focus my eyes on anything before the next
air-induced-jolt defocused things. Uncertain whether I was going to
overshoot/undershoot a 3,000' long field until on v-e-r-y short final. Had
actual diffyoogulty *locating* the field due to violence-induced focusing
impairment. The whole dismal affair was sufficiently stressful/lengthy that a
corner of my brain wanted the stress to "just end" *while* it was
occurring...closest I ever came to resignation to an unwanted fate.

Only once did I ever put myself in a position where (briefly - but Seriously
Alarmingly!) the very real possibility of hitting a ridge seemed
"not-vanishingly small." (Kids, definitely not recommended!) Caused by
"prematurely-circling" toward a ridge in sinking air that I'd presumed was
going to be rising. Seriously Stupid, all around.

Bob W.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

On Saturday, July 25, 2020 at 3:17:35 PM UTC-4, John Carlyle wrote:
... Suddenly the left wing went down, rolling me towards the ridge,
fortunately some 2,000 feet below. Full right aileron and full right rudder
did nothing to stop the roll, and the bank kept getting steeper. After what
seemed like an hour but was probably about 10 seconds, my LS-8 responded
and rolled level.

So you immediately moved upwind and climbed in the smooth wave, right? ;-)

Ramy, When you fly from Nephi Ut to Rifle Co and back and all the way across Utah both ways, its obvious the thermals are working for you. Not against you, with you!
At the mid winter thermal convention I'm sure they talk about you Keith, Jim, Joe, The Mocklers, all you super long distance guys and agree to help you guys out next season.
Eric I never said I was in danger, Over Yuba last week end, I was thousands of feet in the air at the time. But I have had several "Roll into the hill" events, that did frighten me. When ever the bank continues to increase, uncommanded, I get concerned.
After My HG open distance pal Geoff Lyons hit the hill at Boundary Peak Owens Valley, that was really a wake up call for me, on how it can happen if your too close, to anyone.
Reread 5Z's post, he's got the right stuff.
Fly safe in 2020
Nick
T

On Friday, July 24, 2020 at 7:11:40 AM UTC-7, Nick Kennedy wrote:
Ramy, When you fly from Nephi Ut to Rifle Co and back and all the way across Utah both ways, its obvious the thermals are working for you. Not against you, with you!
At the mid winter thermal convention I'm sure they talk about you Keith, Jim, Joe, The Mocklers, all you super long distance guys and agree to help you guys out next season.
Eric I never said I was in danger, Over Yuba last week end, I was thousands of feet in the air at the time. But I have had several "Roll into the hill" events, that did frighten me. When ever the bank continues to increase, uncommanded, I get concerned.
After My HG open distance pal Geoff Lyons hit the hill at Boundary Peak Owens Valley, that was really a wake up call for me, on how it can happen if your too close, to anyone.
Reread 5Z's post, he's got the right stuff.
Fly safe in 2020
Nick
T
I was on a hiatus from soaring when Geoff Lyons had his accident. Can someone please tell me what happened?