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Running dry?



 
 
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  #1  
Old August 18th 05, 02:46 PM
Greg Copeland
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Default Running dry?

In September 2004 issue of AOPA Flight Training, Mark Cook has an article,
"No Fueln' Around". Under the "Selector boy" side article, he mentions
that he runs some of his tanks dry in his Bellanca Viking. In at least
one of John Deakin's articles
(http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182044-1.html), he not only recommends
running tanks dry but puts forth a powerful argument that it's a
responsible fuel management strategy. Furthermore, Deakin also offers
that he has never found an NTSB accident report related to a failed engine
start when running a tank dry and switching to the next. Both guys
recommend setting a timer a couple of minutes before the tank should run
dry; which acts of both early warning and as validation of your
anticipated fuel consumption.

Is this common? How many run their tank(s) dry as part of their fuel
management strategy? If you don't run dry, why not? Aside from the heat
beat skipping which is sure to follow the first couple of times, what's
the down side to this strategy?

Lastly, I did cross post this message as I feel it's of value to both
student and general pilot population alike.

Cheers,

Greg


  #2  
Old August 18th 05, 02:58 PM
Peter R.
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Default

Greg Copeland wrote:

Is this common? How many run their tank(s) dry as part of their fuel
management strategy? If you don't run dry, why not? Aside from the heat
beat skipping which is sure to follow the first couple of times, what's
the down side to this strategy?


I would like to do this just one time for each of the two main tanks in the
Bonanza V35 I fly if for no other reason than to validate the actual
duration and total gallons. However, I have yet to take the time or have
the courage to do so.

As far as disadvantages, I am concerned about what might happen with the
sediment in these aging fuel bladders as the fuel empties. But, I have
read articles that dispel this myth so perhaps this is a non-issue.



--
Peter
























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  #3  
Old August 18th 05, 03:07 PM
Greg Copeland
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Default

On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 09:58:18 -0400, Peter R. wrote:

Greg Copeland wrote:

Is this common? How many run their tank(s) dry as part of their fuel
management strategy? If you don't run dry, why not? Aside from the
hea[r]t beat skipping which is sure to follow the first couple of
times, what's the down side to this strategy?


I would like to do this just one time for each of the two main tanks in
the Bonanza V35 I fly if for no other reason than to validate the actual
duration and total gallons. However, I have yet to take the time or
have the courage to do so.

As far as disadvantages, I am concerned about what might happen with the
sediment in these aging fuel bladders as the fuel empties. But, I
have read articles that dispel this myth so perhaps this is a non-issue.


Deakin's article specifically mentions this. I recommend you read the
article. He argues this is nothing to worry about and even
indirectly offers this is a reason to run your tanks dry.

Greg

  #4  
Old August 18th 05, 03:14 PM
Greg Copeland
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Default

On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 09:58:18 -0400, Peter R. wrote:

Greg Copeland wrote:

As far as disadvantages, I am concerned about what might happen with the
sediment in these aging fuel bladders as the fuel empties. But, I have
read articles that dispel this myth so perhaps this is a non-issue.


Opps. I misread that. I read that has "have not"...obviously you have.
Ignore my suggestion to read the article.

Greg

  #5  
Old August 18th 05, 03:19 PM
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
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Default

Greg Copeland wrote:
(http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182044-1.html), he not only recommends
running tanks dry but puts forth a powerful argument that it's a
responsible fuel management strategy. Furthermore, Deakin also offers
that he has never found an NTSB accident report related to a failed engine
start when running a tank dry and switching to the next.



WE had one of our Lances crash at RDU one foggy morning that I believe was due
to the pilot running one tank dry while on the ILS inbound from the outer
marker. He hit the tops of the trees, spun around and down one and landed flat
in a densely wooded area to the north of the field. The resulting fire
destroyed the aircraft pretty completely. Fortunately, the pilot walked away
from it with just a superficial cut on his forehead.

He may have tried to restart but just didn't have enough time before he sank
into the trees. Clean, a Lance will come down at 1100 FPM; it's gonna be
considerably faster with the gear hanging out like it would after intercepting
the glideslope.

http://www8.landings.com/cgi-bin/nph...at&pos =71003

I've got some pictures of this wreck; you wouldn't believe it was possible for
anyone to survive. Here's one of them:

http://home.carolina.rr.com/jayhanig/crash4.jpg

Now, to get back to the first question: how often does one run a tank dry
intentionally? If I was in a Cherokee Six with four tanks and had passengers,
hopefully never. The downside of this is that if you left just a couple of
estimated gallons in each tank, you have lost a significant amount of useful
fuel.

If I were trying to stretch a flight and even then only if I were alone, I might
consider running one dry. But I have to tell you: running a tank dry in a
Cherokee results in te longest 30 seconds of your life. I ran a C-210 tank dry
once and almost the second I hit the boost after switching the fuel selector I
got a restart. Not so in the Cherokee... it takes a while. A loooong while.
Kind of scarey.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

VE


  #6  
Old August 18th 05, 03:21 PM
Peter R.
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Default

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" wrote:

WE had one of our Lances crash at RDU one foggy morning that I believe was due
to the pilot running one tank dry while on the ILS inbound from the outer
marker.

snip

I would certainly hope that if one desired to *deliberately* run a tank
dry, that pilot would not choose the approach phase to do so.

--
Peter
























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  #7  
Old August 18th 05, 03:32 PM
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
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Default

Peter R. wrote:
I would certainly hope that if one desired to *deliberately* run a tank
dry, that pilot would not choose the approach phase to do so.



Well, it runs dry when it's empty. I wouldn't have picked that particular
moment myself. In this case, I believe the pilot was an idiot. He used to joke
about how far he would fly without refueling. I didn't see that he had a future
in aviation. The boss canned him after the Lance went down.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

VE


  #8  
Old August 18th 05, 03:50 PM
Greg Copeland
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Default

On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 14:19:04 +0000, Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote:

WE had one of our Lances crash at RDU one foggy morning that I believe
was due to the pilot running one tank dry while on the ILS inbound from
the outer marker. He hit the tops of the trees, spun around and down
one and landed flat in a densely wooded area to the north of the field.
The resulting fire destroyed the aircraft pretty completely.
Fortunately, the pilot walked away from it with just a superficial cut
on his forehead.



Let me be clear here, I am not talking about accidentally running a tank
dry. In fact, if done as Deakin and Cook prescribe, it probably would of
prevented the accident you mention.

He may have tried to restart but just didn't have enough time before he
sank into the trees. Clean, a Lance will come down at 1100 FPM; it's
gonna be considerably faster with the gear hanging out like it would
after intercepting the glideslope.

http://www8.landings.com/cgi-bin/nph...at&pos =71003


Again, this sounds like an accident caused by poor planning. This is not
what I'm talking about. Poor fuel management is poor fuel management.
Let's not confuse the two.

Now, to get back to the first question: how often does one run a tank
dry intentionally? If I was in a Cherokee Six with four tanks and had
passengers, hopefully never. The downside of this is that if you left
just a couple of estimated gallons in each tank, you have lost a
significant amount of useful fuel.


Deakin specifically addresses the issue with passengers on board. In his
opinion, proper passenger briefing, a timer, and calm behavior on part of
the pilot is key.


If I were trying to stretch a flight and even then only if I were alone,
I might consider running one dry. But I have to tell you: running a
tank dry in a Cherokee results in te longest 30 seconds of your life. I
ran a C-210 tank dry once and almost the second I hit the boost after
switching the fuel selector I got a restart. Not so in the Cherokee...
it takes a while. A loooong while. Kind of scarey.


If you have not done so, please read his article and see what you think. I
must say, my impression of your position is one of fear not one of reason.
Am I wrong?

I must admit, I certainly would not expect something like a 30-second
delay. I would expect something more in line of a couple of seconds at
most. Perhaps it was a could of seconds but felt like 30?

Greg


  #9  
Old August 18th 05, 03:53 PM
Doug
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Default

Who needs the added risk and worry of running a tank dry? There is
always a small chance that an engine will not start if you allow it to
actually be fuel starved. I don't recommend doing engine outs by
pulling the mixture knob either. But people do it and usually get away
with it. I wouldn't recommend it. Airlines ops don't allow it, for good
reasons. You simply don't want the added risk, stress and decision
making. I want to keep my engine running!

  #10  
Old August 18th 05, 04:02 PM
Dudley Henriques
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Default


"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" wrote in message
.com...
Peter R. wrote:
I would certainly hope that if one desired to *deliberately* run a tank
dry, that pilot would not choose the approach phase to do so.



Well, it runs dry when it's empty. I wouldn't have picked that particular
moment myself. In this case, I believe the pilot was an idiot. He used
to joke about how far he would fly without refueling. I didn't see that
he had a future in aviation. The boss canned him after the Lance went
down.


Actually, the boss should have canned him when he started joking about how
far he could fly without refueling. If I had a pilot working for me doing
this, even joking, I'd have him in my office in five seconds to either
straighten him out or get rid of him. This kind of talk, even around the
flight office, can have a very bad effect on a commercial operation, and no
pilot who ever worked for me would have survived with me long enough to run
dry on the localizer.
Dudley Henriques


 




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