If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#51
|
|||
|
|||
In article ,
ADP wrote: Well Mark, After defending the honor of Airline Pilots, I suppose that I could be forgiven the fact that I agree with your last two paragraphs, to wit: What does this have to do with RAS? Plenty. I suggest pilots who are very experienced can benefit from practicing things that are VERY "rare." As you get more experienced, these things become even rarer (because skill and judgement make them so.) Slack rope, the need for takeoff abort, unexpected need for release, full stalls, failed instruments, etc. are rare because super experienced pilot skills are so good one avoids these things well. I suggest that if one spends enough time in the safe regime, the rare events happen extremely rarely, but when they do, they are more unexpected, more mentally jarring, and more potentially devastating. The mental disbelief of an experienced pilot can be more profound and more crippling than for a novice. I myself have had a delayed reaction to a recovery because of disbelief and had to go back to training from many years past to recover. And I've seen this while flying with other experienced pilots... It's like saying puppy dogs are cute. Of course you are mostly right but it does not entirely explain why experienced pilots do dumb things. I can not, for the life of me, understand how a pilot gets into an inadvertant spin close to the ground. I have seen it and read about it, but I don't understand it. The accident reports from the last ten years for gliders indicate two ridge soaring stall/spins, two airframe failures during stall/spin or recovery, and 1 C.G. stall spin for commercial pilots. Out of 24 fatal accidents. This seems quite different from the accidents of low time pilots (which include some classic base to final accidents). To take your thesis to its logical extent, I suppose I am an accident just waiting to happen, as are we all. With over 15,000 hours of accident free flying, I guess it's time to hang it up. (He says, modestly.) If you've been accident free for a long time, you may have developed self-discipline which results in self-training which helps you to continuously be "recent" in your experiences. Maybe you fly a variety of aircraft which helps you to avoid repetitive complacency. Maybe you occasionally stop your prop for an air restart in a new aircraft. Maybe you spin a new glider once in a while to keep yourself sharp. If you do, this may be what is keeping you from having an accident. Hours are not the only metric. "Just because a man eats every day doesn't make him a gourmet." I liked that quote Hours just show that the overall attitude of the pilot hasn't killed him yet... sO WHAT'S THE POINT? hOW CAN WE ALL BENEFIT FROM THESE OBSERVATIONS? Practice those rare occurances, and try to avoid the arrogant assumptions that "it can't happen to me." Self-discipline and the awareness of the little mistakes is really valuable in avoiding the big mistakes. Finally, study the accident reports and practice things that will ensure you don't repeat the mistakes of OTHERS either. I've had a heart-wrenching session where I said "that failed spin recovery with the excess speed and outboard wing sections failing could have happened because of a wind-up ASI. Maybe they didn't know their airspeed." Then whenever I see that kind of ASI, I mentally note this is a potential problem. Most of us are probably engineers, so we have critical, analytical minds anyway. Make the "what if's" FUN. Above all, for even the little mistakes, don't be "that guy" who always blames it on somebody/something else... fess' up and make it a learning experience for everyone... -- ------------+ Mark Boyd Avenal, California, USA |
#52
|
|||
|
|||
Yes.
Allan "Mark James Boyd" wrote in message news:40513bc3@darkstar... In article , Above all, for even the little mistakes, don't be "that guy" who always blames it on somebody/something else... fess' up and make it a learning experience for everyone... -- ------------+ Mark Boyd Avenal, California, USA |
#53
|
|||
|
|||
Mark,
you make a good point regarding learning from others' mistakes. I once heard Paddy Welles give an interesting talk on Denial and its effects, some expected, some less so. It boiled down to a warning... if you look at someone else's misfortune and cannot see his fate befalling you, then you've learned nothing, blinded by denial. Problem is, denial is an important part of maintaining a competitive edge, justifying risk taking. Finding the balance is important. Knowing when to stop being a hero even moreso. Many years ago a friend was crippled after a low release from tow leading to a spin. The cause of the accident was distraction... a bee had joined him in the cockpit. He was allergic to their stings. I thought about that accident a long time. Not about bees, but about other things that might happen in the cockpit, so unusual or frightening that they might divert my attention from flying -- and cost me my life as a result. I came up with a handful of possibilities -- fire, snake, canopy loss, control loss, harness failure, cramp... point is, I decided to develop a process for dealing with such emergencies. When I had my bee encounter (2 of them woke up on final glide -- one had crawled up my pants leg for warmth, the other nestled between my shirt back and waistband) I got past the initial shudder, slowed down a little, then attended to isolating the one up my pants leg. The other I had no control over. After landing, with help from the ground crew, we set both of them free, none of the three of us any the worse for wear. Point is, I'd thought this through. Not how I was going to deal with the bees, but how I would deal with my reaction to them. |
#54
|
|||
|
|||
snip
I can not, for the life of me, understand how a pilot gets into an inadvertant spin close to the ground. I have seen it and read about it, but I don't understand it. snip To become that pilot try a downwind turn at about 200 feet while landing in a feild that has livestock/fences or other distractions. The point is nearly every pilot that inadvertantly spun it in close to the ground was not thinking I am about to spin. Instead they were thinking things more like: Am I going to make past that fence? Am I going to clear those trees? Will I get stopped before the end of the field? Is that cow going to dart in front of me? How am I going to get the glider out of the field? How am I going to contact my crew? Where is that other glider? Did I put my beer in the cooler? Meanwhile back in the cockpit the ASI is hovering over the bottom of the white(green) arc. The glider looks like it has plenty of airspeed because the ground looks like it is screaming past it due to it being so close and also because it is going downwind. Then: the nose drops and or a wing drops. Ask any pilot what control input makes the nose go up and what makes a wing go up. 99.9% will say pulling back on the stick and moving the stick away from the dropping wing. What do you think the most likely response for a pilot that is thinking "am I going to clear those trees" is when the wing and nose drop? Give yourself a star if you said pull back on the stick and put in opposite aileron. The only pilot that would push forward on the stick is the one that recongnized this situation as a stall. If you are to distracted to recognize a stall when you think everything is just fine you will react entirely incorrectly and probably hit the ground wondering what broke on the glider because you have the stick all the way back and full aileron that nose is still dropping and wings are not leveling. I have watched students (who knew better) do this at altitude hundreds of times. I have been there done that myself once is a 1-26 (fortunatly) on an off feild landing. As the 1-26 began to shudder I glanced at the airspeed and pushed the nose down. Lowering the nose very hard to do when it looks like you are going fast and the ground is close. Very simlar feeling to the "leans" (feeling like your turning when the instruments say your not) when instrument flying. IMO. most stall spin accidents at low level are caused by the illusion of speed when you are close to the ground. Possibly illusions of attitude caused by lack of a distant horizon. And most importantly by the pilot not recognizing they are in a potentional stall spin situation due to these factors, experience level (high or low), and workload. Brian Case CFIIG/ASEL |
#55
|
|||
|
|||
Mark James Boyd wrote:
... I suggest that if one spends enough time in the safe regime, the rare events happen extremely rarely, but when they do, they are more unexpected, more mentally jarring, and more potentially devastating. The mental disbelief of an experienced pilot can be more profound and more crippling than for a novice. I myself have had a delayed reaction to a recovery because of disbelief and had to go back to training from many years past to recover. And I've seen this while flying with other experienced pilots... ... I found how to avoid that: become instructor, so you have to routinely demonstrate the proper reaction :-) |
#56
|
|||
|
|||
"Brian Case" wrote in message om... snip I can not, for the life of me, understand how a pilot gets into an inadvertant spin close to the ground. I have seen it and read about it, but I don't understand it. snip To become that pilot try a downwind turn at about 200 feet while landing in a feild that has livestock/fences or other distractions. The point is nearly every pilot that inadvertantly spun it in close to the ground was not thinking I am about to spin. Instead they were thinking things more like: Am I going to make past that fence? Am I going to clear those trees? Will I get stopped before the end of the field? Is that cow going to dart in front of me? How am I going to get the glider out of the field? How am I going to contact my crew? Where is that other glider? Did I put my beer in the cooler? Meanwhile back in the cockpit the ASI is hovering over the bottom of the white(green) arc. The glider looks like it has plenty of airspeed because the ground looks like it is screaming past it due to it being so close and also because it is going downwind. Then: the nose drops and or a wing drops. Ask any pilot what control input makes the nose go up and what makes a wing go up. 99.9% will say pulling back on the stick and moving the stick away from the dropping wing. What do you think the most likely response for a pilot that is thinking "am I going to clear those trees" is when the wing and nose drop? Give yourself a star if you said pull back on the stick and put in opposite aileron. The only pilot that would push forward on the stick is the one that recongnized this situation as a stall. If you are to distracted to recognize a stall when you think everything is just fine you will react entirely incorrectly and probably hit the ground wondering what broke on the glider because you have the stick all the way back and full aileron that nose is still dropping and wings are not leveling. I have watched students (who knew better) do this at altitude hundreds of times. I have been there done that myself once is a 1-26 (fortunatly) on an off feild landing. As the 1-26 began to shudder I glanced at the airspeed and pushed the nose down. Lowering the nose very hard to do when it looks like you are going fast and the ground is close. Very simlar feeling to the "leans" (feeling like your turning when the instruments say your not) when instrument flying. IMO. most stall spin accidents at low level are caused by the illusion of speed when you are close to the ground. Possibly illusions of attitude caused by lack of a distant horizon. And most importantly by the pilot not recognizing they are in a potentional stall spin situation due to these factors, experience level (high or low), and workload. Brian Case CFIIG/ASEL Brian makes a good case about illusions and distractions. I have always asked my students to make an evaluation of how difficult an impending landing is likely to be before entering the pattern. Then: 1. Consciously set all else aside and concentrate on flying a perfect pattern and landing. 2. Realize that if he screws it up badly enough, he will be the lead story on the evening news. 3. Increase instrument scan rate while consciously avoiding instrument fixation. 4. Continue to evaluate the sight picture of the approach and the surrounding airspace. 5, Make small corrections early rather than big corrections late. In short, notch up alertness and really THINK about what is happening - RISE TO THE OCCASION. Practicing a bunch of skidding turn spin entries at safe altitude helps too. The first few of these seem very quick and sneaky (If you use a decent trainer) but once a student gets used to the sensations it seems like the glider is providing HUGE indications that it doesn't like how it is being flown. I also agree with ADP that it's hard to comprehend how pilots spin a glider on a turn to final. Landing a glider is incredibly easy compared to more complicated aircraft. You really have only one instrument to monitor - the airspeed. A glider pilot has fantastic visibility from the cockpit, extraordinarily powerful controls to aid him in making a precise landing and a very slow approach speed so he shouldn't feel rushed. Yet, it DOES happen. In my mind, it can only speak to VERY poor flying skills employed at the critical moment. We CAN do better. Compare the leisurely approach and landing of a glider on a sunny afternoon to the following from a Navy pilot friend of mine. Location: Gulf of Alaska. Time: 0300 local Weather: One half mile and 200 feet in driving rain. Sea state 4. Sea temp 0C. Aircraft: E2 Hawkeye - one turning and one burning - scattered system failures. Six SOB. Carrier: Pitching deck. Angle deck clear but disabled aircraft forward. Options - none. She hooked the number three wire. Bill Daniels |
#57
|
|||
|
|||
In article ,
Bill Daniels wrote: "Brian Case" wrote in message . com... snip I can not, for the life of me, understand how a pilot gets into an inadvertant spin close to the ground. I have seen it and read about it, but I don't understand it. snip The point is nearly every pilot that inadvertantly spun it in close to the ground was not thinking I am about to spin. Instead they were thinking things more like: Where's the stall warning horn? I'm still utterly baffled why there isn't a stall warning device on each wingtip? Is this really that much extra drag? Is it more drag than that caused by having to make a wing design that buffets before a full stall? Sure sure, "note required by type certification." Just because we CAN make gliders without stall warning devices, SHOULD we? In the Nimbus 4DM and the 60 degree bank stall accidents I read, I wonder if this would have helped... -- ------------+ Mark Boyd Avenal, California, USA |
#58
|
|||
|
|||
My response to this is, "don't do that". Do not be distracted from your
primary goal of getting on the ground safely. Kill the cow, screw the crops, go between the trees, the hell with the pattern ---- do not stall and you will walk away. Allan "Brian Case" wrote in message om... snip I can not, for the life of me, understand how a pilot gets into an inadvertant spin close to the ground. I have seen it and read about it, but I don't understand it. snip To become that pilot try a downwind turn at about 200 feet while landing in a feild that has livestock/fences or other distractions. The point is nearly every pilot that inadvertantly spun it in close to the ground was not thinking I am about to spin. Instead they were thinking things more like: Am I going to make past that fence? Am I going to clear those trees? Will I get stopped before the end of the field? Is that cow going to dart in front of me? How am I going to get the glider out of the field? How am I going to contact my crew? Where is that other glider? Did I put my beer in the cooler? ....Snip.... |
#59
|
|||
|
|||
Mark James Boyd wrote:
The point is nearly every pilot that inadvertantly spun it in close to the ground was not thinking I am about to spin. Instead they were thinking things more like: Where's the stall warning horn? I'm still utterly baffled why there isn't a stall warning device on each wingtip? Is this really that much extra drag? Is it more drag than that caused by having to make a wing design that buffets before a full stall? It might be useful to look at small airplane accidents, since they DO have stall warning horns. I'm under the impression that stall/spin accidents are a big cause of fatal accidents also. Do you have any numbers? -- ----- change "netto" to "net" to email me directly Eric Greenwell Washington State USA |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
For Auction: Thermal Imaging Camera - One Day Left | sell2all | Rotorcraft | 0 | April 29th 04 08:29 PM |
For Auction: Thermal Imaging Camera - One Day Left | sell2all | Naval Aviation | 0 | April 29th 04 08:09 PM |
For Auction: Thermal Imaging Camera - One Day Left | sell2all | General Aviation | 0 | April 29th 04 08:09 PM |
Spin on thermal entry - how-to | Bill Daniels | Soaring | 0 | January 29th 04 05:43 PM |
Thermal to Wave contact! | C.Fleming | Soaring | 1 | January 21st 04 01:54 PM |