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Confusing SSA hand signals that should be changed



 
 
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  #31  
Old April 1st 18, 04:14 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Marotta
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Posts: 4,601
Default Confusing SSA hand signals that should be changed

The main difference is that a lot of the soaring operations, clubs and
commercial operations in the US are based at public use airports and
there is general aviation traffic, commuter flights, sky diving clubs,
etc., using the same airport and frequency.Â* After getting out on
course, most gliders switch to a common frequency used mostly by
gliders, though I often hear military training flights there, as well.

To further muck up the waters, most uncontrolled airports in the USA use
one of a few frequencies as Unicom or Common Traffic Advisory Frequency
and, around Moriarty, there are at least three airports within line of
sight to gliders at altitude that use the same frequency.Â* And, if that
is not enough, one of those airports uses the same frequency for its
Automatic Terminal Information Service which, after a couple of mic
clicks or transmissions close together, will start broadcasting airport
weather information.

We don't have sky diving at Moriarty, but we do have a lot of general
aviation flights arriving, departing, practicing landings, fire bombers,
military helicopters, etc., and all are blended in with glider
operations, both the ABQ Soaring Club and Sundance Aviation, the
commercial operator.Â* On weekends, we'll have two or three tugs operating.

These are some of the reasons that hand signals are so useful at our
operations.

On 4/1/2018 3:07 AM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Sat, 31 Mar 2018 18:34:32 -0700, Tango Eight wrote:

We have radios in all of our aircraft. We simply prefer not to clutter
the air waves, there is plenty of that already.

Thats never a problem at my club because, like all the bigger UK clubs,
we have our own frequency. Is this not usual in the USA?

Not criticising: just curious.




--
Dan, 5J
  #32  
Old April 1st 18, 08:56 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)
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Posts: 1,383
Default Confusing SSA hand signals that should be changed

Sheesh Dan, is that all in the US?!?!
Slacker......
;-)

Yes, at our location, we do our hand signals which is pretty close to SSA standards.
Yes, if possible, we do radio. Not all trainers have a mounted radio, but may have a handheld.

We do a LOT of ground launch training before solo wing runner doing it solo.
Perfect!, nope.
Only perfect peeps I know are usuallly buttholes.

We do, we watch, we adapt.
We have a good record.
We are open to fine tune methods.
We are close to "SSA standards".

  #33  
Old April 1st 18, 11:58 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Marotta
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Posts: 4,601
Default Confusing SSA hand signals that should be changed

Yeah, I know.Â* We need more regulations and procedures...Â* Flying is
still too much fun. :-D

On 4/1/2018 1:56 PM, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
Sheesh Dan, is that all in the US?!?!
Slacker......
;-)

Yes, at our location, we do our hand signals which is pretty close to SSA standards.
Yes, if possible, we do radio. Not all trainers have a mounted radio, but may have a handheld.

We do a LOT of ground launch training before solo wing runner doing it solo.
Perfect!, nope.
Only perfect peeps I know are usuallly buttholes.

We do, we watch, we adapt.
We have a good record.
We are open to fine tune methods.
We are close to "SSA standards".


--
Dan, 5J
  #34  
Old April 2nd 18, 04:47 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Posts: 41
Default Confusing SSA hand signals that should be changed

On Tuesday, March 27, 2018 at 12:20:56 PM UTC-5, kirk.stant wrote:
As a glider pilot and tow pilot, there are a couple of SSA - recommended hand signals/procedures that I find confusing at best and dangerous at worst:



At one of the clubs where I regularly fly, they use the standard SSA signals, however, they leave the wingtip on the ground while the wing runner signals to take up slack. Once the slack is out, they signal a brief stop and then the wing runner turns a complete circle to view the entire airspace around the launch. If that shows no other traffic that would be a problem, the wing runner checks for a thumbs up from the pilot and then lifts the wingtip and gives the takeoff signal.

I believe that doing an intentional stop after taking out slack makes it far easier for the wing runner to make a full survey of the airspace, without juggling a wingtip during the check. It only takes seconds, but I believe it adds to safety.
  #35  
Old April 2nd 18, 06:51 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
CindyB[_2_]
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Posts: 157
Default Confusing SSA hand signals that should be changed

On Tuesday, March 27, 2018 at 10:20:56 AM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
As a glider pilot and tow pilot, there are a couple of SSA - recommended hand signals/procedures that I find confusing at best and dangerous at worst:

First, the HOLD and STOP signals. snipped by CB

The SSF "STOP" signal is even dumber - totally invisible from the towplane and not used anywhere else that I can find. And again is a two handed signal.

I propose that the SSA and SSF change the US standard signal for HOLD and STOP to one arm held straight up (preferable with a hat or paddle), or two arms held up crossed (if both arms are free).


Aaaagh. So the suggestion is to have two potential actions for the same suggested signal? Again, a less than desirable 'vocabulary' for communication. Or is Hold/Stop the same thing?

I tell folks that MOVING parts are easier to see from a tug mirror. If you Really Need that towpilot's attention - you will MOVE the signalling appendage. How do you stop/halt auto traffic from striking an item on the roadway?
You hop in front of the oncoming machine, and WAVE your arms over your head.
(Please do remove yourself, if the machine isn't halting.) You Got Big.
Maybe you jump up and down or move laterally while waving. Motion is the item that gets attention across a retina.
Once you have them stopping, you convert to a still being. Probably still hands-high.

Having a wingtip on the ground means - wait, don't launch.
Having a hand overhead means - wait, don't launch.
When that hand is 'changing' from below-waist movement (taxi) it has two possible next instructions - Stop, or Go. One is no motion, one IS motion.
Two arms up-and-crossed aren't much different visually than one arm.
But two-up arms must mean a tip is down.... = waiting (for the tug).
An Arm Up with a ballcap/gliderhat/T-shirt/washtowel or seat cushion in hand - is Big visually.

The key is - learn the LOCAL protocol.
The refinements are important.
I like that UH uses a system that is so-similar and like groundlaunch signals.
Moving = moving. Still = still.

The SSA/SSF signal that bugs me is a different one.
How do you tell a tug to release a line and move off the area
and park, or shutdown?

If you hold your hand palm down and cross your throat with it,
no towpilot I ever met (that's a big number) has released a line.
Every one of those pilots has immediately shut down their engine.

If I want a tug to release a line, I point to his tow hook, then
I grab hands together in front of my chest (as if connected), then release and flare fingers and spread hands wide apart. If needed (from no pre-briefing),
I repeat this and have always been successful getting a line dropped.
Then I point to them, to where they should taxi, and shut down with the throat-cut signal. That has always worked for me.

Be careful out there.
It's "the silly season".

Cindy B


  #36  
Old April 2nd 18, 10:17 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
kirk.stant
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Posts: 1,260
Default Confusing SSA hand signals that should be changed

On Monday, April 2, 2018 at 12:51:36 AM UTC-5, CindyB wrote:
On Tuesday, March 27, 2018 at 10:20:56 AM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
As a glider pilot and tow pilot, there are a couple of SSA - recommended hand signals/procedures that I find confusing at best and dangerous at worst:

First, the HOLD and STOP signals. snipped by CB

The SSF "STOP" signal is even dumber - totally invisible from the towplane and not used anywhere else that I can find. And again is a two handed signal.

I propose that the SSA and SSF change the US standard signal for HOLD and STOP to one arm held straight up (preferable with a hat or paddle), or two arms held up crossed (if both arms are free).


Aaaagh. So the suggestion is to have two potential actions for the same suggested signal? Again, a less than desirable 'vocabulary' for communication. Or is Hold/Stop the same thing?

I tell folks that MOVING parts are easier to see from a tug mirror. If you Really Need that towpilot's attention - you will MOVE the signalling appendage. How do you stop/halt auto traffic from striking an item on the roadway?
You hop in front of the oncoming machine, and WAVE your arms over your head.
(Please do remove yourself, if the machine isn't halting.) You Got Big.
Maybe you jump up and down or move laterally while waving. Motion is the item that gets attention across a retina.
Once you have them stopping, you convert to a still being. Probably still hands-high.

Having a wingtip on the ground means - wait, don't launch.
Having a hand overhead means - wait, don't launch.
When that hand is 'changing' from below-waist movement (taxi) it has two possible next instructions - Stop, or Go. One is no motion, one IS motion..
Two arms up-and-crossed aren't much different visually than one arm.
But two-up arms must mean a tip is down.... = waiting (for the tug).
An Arm Up with a ballcap/gliderhat/T-shirt/washtowel or seat cushion in hand - is Big visually.

The key is - learn the LOCAL protocol.
The refinements are important.
I like that UH uses a system that is so-similar and like groundlaunch signals.
Moving = moving. Still = still.

The SSA/SSF signal that bugs me is a different one.
How do you tell a tug to release a line and move off the area
and park, or shutdown?

If you hold your hand palm down and cross your throat with it,
no towpilot I ever met (that's a big number) has released a line.
Every one of those pilots has immediately shut down their engine.

If I want a tug to release a line, I point to his tow hook, then
I grab hands together in front of my chest (as if connected), then release and flare fingers and spread hands wide apart. If needed (from no pre-briefing),
I repeat this and have always been successful getting a line dropped.
Then I point to them, to where they should taxi, and shut down with the throat-cut signal. That has always worked for me.

Be careful out there.
It's "the silly season".

Cindy B


Well, with ballasted gliders on the line "wings level" could be a confusing signal, IMO. As a tow pilot, it helps to know what is going to be towed; wings level on the grid: ballast, usually, but nothing about whether the glider is ready to go (pilot may not even be in it!).

Ok, so HOLD is an arm held up, preferably holding a hat for visibility. STOP (if necessary) should be the crossed arm signal - that is pretty much standard in aviation (at least in the military). HOLD and STOP are not the same; if I want the towplane to stop taking out slack for some reason, I would tell him to STOP; once the slack is out but before the glider signals he is ready to go the HOLD command is appropriate. A separate STOP at the end of taking out slack is redundant, IMO, the command when the slack is out could just as well be the takeoff command (as common at a contest).

The throat cut means shutdown to just about every power pilot and should be reserved for that. To release the line, we have used both hands above head (for visibility) with thumb and forefinger touching and linked, then separate the hands with the fingers spread (simulating the towrope link being released from the hook). That has not caused any confusion yet. Pretty similar to what you use.

Then again, hand held radios are really cheap ;^)

Kirk
66
  #37  
Old April 3rd 18, 01:20 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Scott Williams
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Posts: 198
Default Confusing SSA hand signals that should be changed

On Sunday, April 1, 2018 at 2:56:46 PM UTC-5, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
Sheesh Dan, is that all in the US?!?!
Slacker......
;-)

Yes, at our location, we do our hand signals which is pretty close to SSA standards.
Yes, if possible, we do radio. Not all trainers have a mounted radio, but may have a handheld.

We do a LOT of ground launch training before solo wing runner doing it solo.
Perfect!, nope.
Only perfect peeps I know are usuallly buttholes.

We do, we watch, we adapt.
We have a good record.
We are open to fine tune methods.
We are close to "SSA standards".


Hey Charlie,
"most perfect peeps are buttholes"?,
I pursue perfection and I'm not a butthole,
Well, maybe a little, no, your right, we're buttholes,
but we want people to like us!! :-)

Scott
  #38  
Old April 3rd 18, 01:53 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)
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Posts: 1,383
Default Confusing SSA hand signals that should be changed

Pursuing perfection is an admirable goal, usually unobtainable.
Typically, anyone that states they are perfect, is usually a butthole (toning my normal term down a bit).
I do not know you, I don't see where you state you are perfect, thus I don't consider you a butthole.

No offense, in general, was meant........unless you consider yourself perfect, then we shall see.
Oh, have a nice day.

Spring is here, looking at the 5" of fresh snow in north NJ........sigh.......
 




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