First NASA form filed

And I sincerely hope it will be the last.

I landed at LSE (LaCrosse) on the way home from the twin cities last
week. I landed on 18 and asked for a progressive taxi to the FBO,
having never been there before. Controller told me to turn left on
taxiway bravo down to the construction cones at the end.

As I was taxiing, I was about to cross 21, then recalled that the ATIS
had called 18 and 21 as active. I stopped, hard, but my nosegear was
over the hold line - in fact my mains were pretty much on the hold line.
I think it's important to note that the controller had not told me to
hold short of 21. If she had, then obviously this would have been a
pretty flagrant violation.

After a split second of uncertainty I told tower I was holding at 21.
She immediately told me to continue past in the chipper tone she had
been using all along. Note that nobody had landed on or departed 21
during the entire time of my taxi so there was no loss of separation.

I do believe that it was my responsibility to hold short of 21 even
though no explicit instruction had been given, though I'm not 100% sure
of that (but in the future I'll be damn sure to in similar
circumstances!). And, unless the controller deliberately wanted to make
me believe nothing was wrong for some reason, I believe she either
didn't notice I was over the hold (this intersection is pretty close to
the tower) or didn't care. Her voice indicated nothing out of the
ordinary, as I said. I know they don't 'have to' ask you to call the
tower or let you know they're making a report, though.

Though the logical side of my brain tells me that the chances of some
enforcement action here would be slim, of course I filed the form
regardless. I'd be interested in hearing people's opinions on that
matter (the chance of some investigation).

"Paul Folbrecht" wrote in message
news
As I was taxiing, I was about to cross 21, then recalled that the ATIS had
called 18 and 21 as active. I stopped, hard, but my nosegear was over the
hold line - in fact my mains were pretty much on the hold line. I think
it's important to note that the controller had not told me to hold short
of 21. If she had, then obviously this would have been a pretty flagrant
violation.


Some people may not like me saying this but I do not agree with the rule
that you are cleared to cross all runways on your way to where you are
taxiing. I think the default should be that they must explicitly tell you
you are cleared to cross ANY runway and when you don't hear that you must
stop and ask (or call and ask as you are approaching it).

I am frequently given instructions which make me cross an active runway
without explicitly saying so and I always ask before doing so and STILL look
out for traffic on it before crossing.

"Peter Gottlieb" wrote in message
t...
"Paul Folbrecht" wrote in message
news
As I was taxiing, I was about to cross 21, then recalled that the ATIS
had
called 18 and 21 as active. I stopped, hard, but my nosegear was over
the
hold line - in fact my mains were pretty much on the hold line. I think
it's important to note that the controller had not told me to hold short
of 21. If she had, then obviously this would have been a pretty
flagrant
violation.


Some people may not like me saying this but I do not agree with the rule
that you are cleared to cross all runways on your way to where you are
taxiing. I think the default should be that they must explicitly tell you
you are cleared to cross ANY runway and when you don't hear that you must
stop and ask (or call and ask as you are approaching it).

I am frequently given instructions which make me cross an active runway
without explicitly saying so and I always ask before doing so and STILL
look
out for traffic on it before crossing.

Nevertheless, this is not what the FARs say. However, the FARs do not
prevent you from taking extra precautions such as these if you feel they are
justified.

Paul,

Try out this AOPA Safety Foundation program it will answer all your
questions.
http://flash.aopa.org/asf/runwaySafety/

cb

"Peter Gottlieb" wrote in message
t...
"Paul Folbrecht" wrote in message
news
As I was taxiing, I was about to cross 21, then recalled that the ATIS
had called 18 and 21 as active. I stopped, hard, but my nosegear was
over the hold line - in fact my mains were pretty much on the hold line.
I think it's important to note that the controller had not told me to
hold short of 21. If she had, then obviously this would have been a
pretty flagrant violation.


Some people may not like me saying this but I do not agree with the rule
that you are cleared to cross all runways on your way to where you are
taxiing. I think the default should be that they must explicitly tell you
you are cleared to cross ANY runway and when you don't hear that you must
stop and ask (or call and ask as you are approaching it).

I am frequently given instructions which make me cross an active runway
without explicitly saying so and I always ask before doing so and STILL
look out for traffic on it before crossing.

Paul Folbrecht wrote:

I do believe that it was my responsibility to hold short of 21 even
though no explicit instruction had been given ...

You are incorrect.

I'd be interested in hearing people's opinions on that
matter (the chance of some investigation).

After some initial puzzlement (e.g. "Umm, what's the problem being
reported here?"), I would hope they'd realize you need some remedial
training on airport operations.
In the meantime, have a look at AIM 4-3-18.

Brien K. Meehan wrote:

Paul Folbrecht wrote:


I do believe that it was my responsibility to hold short of 21 even
though no explicit instruction had been given ...


You are incorrect.

Good news to me if that's correct. However, a CFI I know (not my CFI)
and a controller at another class D airport disagree with you. I should
have mentioned this - this is why I decided to file the form.

I'd be interested in hearing people's opinions on that
matter (the chance of some investigation).


After some initial puzzlement (e.g. "Umm, what's the problem being
reported here?"), I would hope they'd realize you need some remedial
training on airport operations.

Yeah, I guess you're right, it's painfully obvious that a taxi clearance
implicitly grants permission to grant *active* runways, and I'm
hopelessly clueless.

In the meantime, have a look at AIM 4-3-18.

I'll certainly do that.

This reminds me of rules of water -- an unpowered boat has
right of way over powered. In other words, a sailboat has
RoW crossing in front of a large oil tanker.

Just because it's legal doesn't mean it's a good idea. I
agree with the original poster. Doesn't hurt to stop at
the intersection and check -- just in case. There have been
reported incidents and accidents where the tower forgot
about the little aircraft taxiing around with jets coming
in.

No one is ever going to fault you for being careful. Tower/ground
may be annoyed at delays in a busy airport, but being safe
is better.

Ok, well, you are quite right - AIM 4-3-18.6 is entirely clear on this
scenario and I had no obligation to hold.

Since this does seem to be a fairly common point of confusion, though,
I'd suggest that your condescending comment wasn't exactly warranted.

Good think the mailman hadn't come yet. :-) Now how do you retract a
post from Usenet?

Brien K. Meehan wrote:

Paul Folbrecht wrote:


I do believe that it was my responsibility to hold short of 21 even
though no explicit instruction had been given ...


You are incorrect.


I'd be interested in hearing people's opinions on that
matter (the chance of some investigation).


After some initial puzzlement (e.g. "Umm, what's the problem being
reported here?"), I would hope they'd realize you need some remedial
training on airport operations.
In the meantime, have a look at AIM 4-3-18.

On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 15:04:52 GMT, Paul Folbrecht
wrote:

I do believe that it was my responsibility to hold short of 21 even
though no explicit instruction had been given, though I'm not 100% sure
of that (but in the future I'll be damn sure to in similar
circumstances!). And, unless the controller deliberately wanted to make
me believe nothing was wrong for some reason, I believe she either
didn't notice I was over the hold (this intersection is pretty close to
the tower) or didn't care. Her voice indicated nothing out of the
ordinary, as I said. I know they don't 'have to' ask you to call the
tower or let you know they're making a report, though.

You need to review the AIM regarding taxi clearances. In particular:

===========================================
4-3-18. Taxiing
6. In the absence of holding instructions, a clearance to "taxi to" any
point other than an assigned takeoff runway is a clearance to cross ALL
runways that intersect the taxi route to that point.
============================================
(emphasis mine)

While some may argue that clearance to cross each and every runway should
be given by ATC, at least in the US, that is NOT the case.


--ron

"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote

================
4-3-18. Taxiing
6. In the absence of holding instructions, a clearance to "taxi to" any
point other than an assigned takeoff runway is a clearance to cross ALL
runways that intersect the taxi route to that point.
============================================
(emphasis mine)

While some may argue that clearance to cross each and every runway should
be given by ATC, at least in the US, that is NOT the case.


--ron

A trick here is, if you are given clearance to taxi to 31, but have to get
to the opposite side of 31 to get to the taxiway that will take you to the
departure end of 31, you may cross any other runways, but may not cross 31
without clearance.
--
Jim in NC