Buying LS3a or ASW20a? ~$25k cross country glider. Which one and why?

I used to be a pretty avid amateur photographer. Some old timer observed once that in that field amateurs worry about equipment, pros worry about money, true masters worry about light. And so it is with soaring (substitute "rules" for "money", "weather" for "light").

There's no getting around the need for equipment, and the purchasing decisions are significant, but I'd suggest being careful with the advice of anyone who seems to have a brand name tatooed on their psyche and even more careful with *anything* you read on r.a.s. :-).

Your equipment needs to fit your mission. The mission of a 200 hr glider pilot interested in XC is to go out and fly XC and become a better, more experienced pilot without breaking ****. Do you ski? Skiers get this: there is no point to buying more ski or taking on more terrain than your current skills can cope with. You improve by stretching the envelope incrementally.. You do not improve spending your time and money in doctor's offices. Your objective as a skier is to become a better skier, not own brand xxxxxx equipment.

Make friends with the guys who have been doing the kind of flying you want to do and are obviously enjoying it. They'll have good insight.

best,
Evan Ludeman / T8

ASW 20 was ahead of it's time and in reality belongs to same generation as Ventus/LS6 (except that final bit of wing loading). Handling is pleasant, more so than Ventus, and it is easiest glider to land on a short field. You get spare parts and technical assistance from factory without annual fees. It will drop wing if stalled in thermal, just like every single glider this old (especially with aft CG). Push stick forward and you are flying again. All Wortmann FX170-profiled gliders are older generation performance-wise. If it rains or you get bugs on leading edge, you fall out of sky like an anvil. No doubt most of them can be pleasant to fly and perform ok, but they are not on the same level as '20.

On Wednesday, April 3, 2019 at 1:53:19 AM UTC-5, krasw wrote:
ASW 20 was ahead of it's time and in reality belongs to same generation as Ventus/LS6 (except that final bit of wing loading). ... All Wortmann FX170-profiled gliders are older generation performance-wise. If it rains or you get bugs on leading edge, you fall out of sky like an anvil.

But, the 20 uses the older (and maybe better?) 62K153/131 family. Maybe that is why it was ahead of its time? Because it used an older airfoil section. Like its big brothers, the ASW 12 and ASW 17.

Steve Leonard

On Wed, 3 Apr 2019 07:20:42 -0700 (PDT), Steve Leonard
wrote:

On Wednesday, April 3, 2019 at 1:53:19 AM UTC-5, krasw wrote:
ASW 20 was ahead of it's time and in reality belongs to same generation as Ventus/LS6 (except that final bit of wing loading). ... All Wortmann FX170-profiled gliders are older generation performance-wise. If it rains or you get bugs on leading edge, you fall out of sky like an anvil.

But, the 20 uses the older (and maybe better?) 62K153/131 family. Maybe that is why it was ahead of its time? Because it used an older airfoil section. Like its big brothers, the ASW 12 and ASW 17.


Interesiting side note:

Luc Boermans recently told me that ALL his airfoils are based upon the
FX 62K-131 of the ASW-20.

The FX67 was a one-trick pony that was impossible to cure of its
extremely bad performance when wet or dirty.


Thus said: The ASW-20 and LS-3 are similar in performance as long as
they are clean and dry.

Once an LS-3 gets dirty or wet, the performance loss is drastic - the
20 hardly suffers. One clear point pro ASW-20.

Cheers
Andreas

On Friday, April 5, 2019 at 5:41:00 AM UTC+3, Andreas Maurer wrote:
On Wed, 3 Apr 2019 07:20:42 -0700 (PDT), Steve Leonard
wrote:

On Wednesday, April 3, 2019 at 1:53:19 AM UTC-5, krasw wrote:
ASW 20 was ahead of it's time and in reality belongs to same generation as Ventus/LS6 (except that final bit of wing loading). ... All Wortmann FX170-profiled gliders are older generation performance-wise. If it rains or you get bugs on leading edge, you fall out of sky like an anvil.

But, the 20 uses the older (and maybe better?) 62K153/131 family. Maybe that is why it was ahead of its time? Because it used an older airfoil section. Like its big brothers, the ASW 12 and ASW 17.


Interesiting side note:

Luc Boermans recently told me that ALL his airfoils are based upon the
FX 62K-131 of the ASW-20.


And I read somewhere that when Lemke designed LS6 profile the upper surface was more or less taken straight from FX62. Of course the lower surface of modern profiles is more refined, in 70' you could not even dream about stretching laminar flow to almost full chord length.

Once an LS-3 gets dirty or wet, the performance loss is drastic - the
20 hardly suffers. One clear point pro ASW-20.

Cheers
Andreas

Regarding rain, we discovered the LS-3--like the PIK 20B that was notorious for falling out of the sky when wet--responded well to using a little more flap than usual. All of the gliders that used that airfoil at the time (LS-3/3a, PIK, Mosquito, Mini Nimbus, others) had the same issue and, I suspect, would respond to the same technique.

Another solution that some of us employed was, after the contour/profile sanding, leaving the wing at about 400 grit finish instead of polishing it up.. The water drops didn't bead up so the performance effect wasn't as great. I know one pilot who flew his LS-3 at 220 grit but he joked about having to sand the bugs off.

Speaking of bugs, we don't often have to deal with insects building up on the wing to the same extent as in Europe. So performance in the rain is the concern. I agree the ASW 20 is affected to a much lesser degree.

Chip Bearden

Just get a 1-26.

On Fri, 5 Apr 2019 11:20:07 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

Speaking of bugs, we don't often have to deal with insects building up on the wing to the same extent as in Europe. So performance in the rain is the concern. I agree the ASW 20 is affected to a much lesser degree.


Well Chip,

I fear that bugs are a thing of the past at least in Germany where I
fly.

During the last five years it gradually got worse (or better?) until
last year I hardly ever had any noticeable amount of bugs on the wings
anymore.

Corresponding to that the number of birds has decreased dramatically,
too.

Thanks for all the replies! This is great information.
I'm still searching.
From what I am seeing here it seems that in general most of these gliders in the late '70s early '80s era are roughly the same. Without trying to start a debate, maybe a bit of an edge going to the 20 or Ventus, with the caveats mentioned in the discussion.

I am not as concerned about manual VS automatic hookups. Obviously I would prefer automatic hookups. Who wouldn't? However the reality is in my price range I have to look at gliders that fall into both categories. I'm a software engineer and am very process deliberate, and to me having manual hookups means always being diligent in the process of putting the glider together.. Manual hookups do not make the glider less safe, you just have to diligently follow the assembly process, checklist, and positive control check every time. If you get distracted, double check everything, restart the assembly checklist from the beginning and re-check every fitting, every time. Then do a positive control check, again.

Having read this thread over from top to bottom a few times, as well as some private discussions, I've narrowed my search down to roughly 4-5 candidates, unless something new comes on the market in the next couple of weeks.

My main criteria now is finish and quality of the aircraft, trailer, and instrumentation. I'll just have to start doing some traveling and looking at aircraft. Right now my candidate list are a DG 200, a DG202, 2 LS3's, an ASW20, and maybe a Ventus, but I am still thinking about the Ventus due to conflicting opinions I am getting on that aircraft. Some say it's great, others not so much.

I was thinking about starting a thread on GPS displays and Flarm. i.e. If I get a glider without a GPS display such as an Oudie, or no Flarm, what are my options for updating at a reasonable cost?
I will want a transponder, at least Mode C, as I plan on getting back to Minden for some wave flying. (I went to 23.5k feet in the wave at Minden once, and have had several flights in the wave over 17k feet.)

Thanks again for all input, I do appreciate it.
Mike

The first iteration of the ASW-20 (there never was an "a" model as such) had a very aggressive flap setting, known by many of us as the "Jesus flap". That's what you said the first time you deployed it - lots and lots of drag, big change in attitude and no extra lift. I believe that most early spin accidents with the ASW-20 resulted from the combination of rearward CG plus early deployment of full landing flap in the pattern followed by a stall/spin on turning.
Schleicher recommended that the Jesus flap only be deployed when your final was properly set up. In the six years I owned my ASW-20, I only deployed maximum flap a couple of times - once when landing out in a very short space. Models from the ASW-20b on removed this last flap setting since it was never really needed.

I have followed several experienced cross-country pilots flying Ventus B gliders and it's noticeable that control movements are larger and more often than in other contemporary models. One pilot I know appeared to use the rudder for supplemental thrust as it was always flapping! I think it's safe to say it needs a bit more attention to fly than others.

I concur with comments about auto-hookups for controls and a decent trailer - once you've had either you never go back!

Mike