Running dry?

Blanche wrote:


Coming home, just the reverse - serious headwinds, high RPM and
more fuel used than I expected. How would knowing a more
accurate fuel capacity help? To me it seems that knowing fuel
usage is more critical than fuel capacity.

What does it serve to know FUEL FLOW unless you can calulate that again
CAPACITY?

How does it help to know how much money you spend if you don't know how much
you have in the bank? (Insert joke about "How can I be out of money, I still
have checks in my checkbook?")

In article ,
Newps wrote:

Avoid JPI like the plague.

My club has been installing JPI's on most of our planes. It is true that
they're over-priced, and have totally inscrutable user interfaces, but this
is true of almost all avionics. What in particular makes you not like JPI?

Recently, Roy Smith posted:

"Neil Gould" wrote:
At most all you've learned is what the fuel capacity of your tanks
are, and that could be more accurately established while on the
ground, FWIW. In fact, the POH should suffice, unless you intend to
violate FARs as a regular practice.

What FAR says you may not run a tank dry?

The FARs address minimum fuel levels when you arrive at your destination.
If you have less than the required amount when you land, you are in
violation. If you are managing your fuel consumption adequately, there is
no need to run your tank dry.

Given that "how much fuel you really have in your tanks"
is only one factor in how long you can continue to fly, and that
those other factors aren't addressed by running your tanks dry, what
*is* the point in doing so?

Assume you are flying something with two tanks and no "both" position
on the fuel selector. You're 30 minutes from your destination, which
would you rather have: an estimated 30 minutes of fuel left in each
tank, or have one tank dry and an estimated hour's worth in the other?

I regularly fly something with two tanks and no "both" position (PA28),
and my preference is to arrive at my destination with more than 30 minutes
worth of fuel, period. I see no point in pushing those limits any more
than seeing how much over gross I can fly. IMO, such points are just
useless information. YMMV.

Neil

The FARs address minimum fuel levels when you arrive at your destination.
If you have less than the required amount when you land, you are in
violation.

I know of no such rule under part 91 of the US regs. (I am not familiar
with part 135 ops). You are required to carry sufficient fuel upon
takeoff to make it to your destination with reserves, but once in the
air, if you need the reserves, you may use them. That is what they are
there for.

If you go too far into your reserves and crash, having passed up
opportunities to not crash, the FAA may get you on "careless or
reckless", but simply landing having used some of your reserves is not a
violation AFAIK.

Jose
--
Quantum Mechanics is like this: God =does= play dice with the universe,
except there's no God, and there's no dice. And maybe there's no universe.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

ORVAL FAIRAIRN wrote:

The philosophy is that it is best to end a flight with all of your
available fuel in a single tank, to prevent starvation at critical
times.

My Maule had only two tanks and a "both" setting on the fuel selector. There
would be no advantage to running one of the tanks dry with this plane.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

"Neil Gould" wrote in message
.. .
Recently, Roy Smith posted:

"Neil Gould" wrote:
At most all you've learned is what the fuel capacity of your tanks
are, and that could be more accurately established while on the
ground, FWIW. In fact, the POH should suffice, unless you intend to
violate FARs as a regular practice.

What FAR says you may not run a tank dry?

The FARs address minimum fuel levels when you arrive at your destination.

It doesn't say which tank it has to be in, so you have not answered the
question.


If you have less than the required amount when you land, you are in
violation.

Still haven't answered his question.

If you are managing your fuel consumption adequately, there is
no need to run your tank dry.

And you STILL haven't answered his question.

Oh-for-three.

"Neil Gould" wrote:
What FAR says you may not run a tank dry?

The FARs address minimum fuel levels when you arrive at your destination.

I'm not aware of any such regulation. I suspect you're thinking of:

91.151 Fuel requirements for flight in VFR conditions.

(a) No person may begin a flight in an airplane under VFR conditions
unless (considering wind and forecast weather conditions) there is enough
fuel to fly to the first point of intended landing and, assuming normal
cruising speed

(1) During the day, to fly after that for at least 30 minutes; or

(2) At night, to fly after that for at least 45 minutes.

But that only talks about how much fuel you have at takeoff, not at landing.

I regularly fly something with two tanks and no "both" position (PA28),
and my preference is to arrive at my destination with more than 30 minutes
worth of fuel, period. I see no point in pushing those limits any more
than seeing how much over gross I can fly. IMO, such points are just
useless information. YMMV.

I also think landing with 30 minutes of fuel is too little. So, how much
is enough? Let's assume we can agree on an hour, which in a 180 HP PA-28
means about 8 gallons. You take off with 48 usable and fly for 5 hours,
leaving an estimated 8 gallons left. Which is a more useful configuration
to have at this point, an estimated 4 gallons usable remaining in each
tank, or an estimated 8 gallons usable in one tank and the other one dry?

On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 16:13:30 GMT, "Neil Gould"
wrote:

Recently, Ron Rosenfeld posted:

On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 15:42:31 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
wrote:

IMHO, proper fuel management means never even coming *close* to
running a tank dry, let alone doing it intentionally.

And how do you know how much fuel you really have in your tanks?

At most all you've learned is what the fuel capacity of your tanks are,
and that could be more accurately established while on the ground, FWIW.

Capacity on the ground is not worth much. I'm more interested in useful
fuel during flight at cruise attitude.

In fact, the POH should suffice,

If I follow your advice, I would assume 26 gallons per side. That would be
pretty stupid since I can't get 26 gallons into a tank after running it
dry!

unless you intend to violate FARs as a
regular practice.

How does knowing your real fuel capacity lead to FAR violations?

I would think that NOT knowing your real fuel capacity will be more likely
to lead not only to FAR violations, but also be more likely to landing
short of your destination.

Given that "how much fuel you really have in your tanks"
is only one factor in how long you can continue to fly, and that those
other factors aren't addressed by running your tanks dry, what *is* the
point in doing so?

Well, I like to know how much fuel I have in my tanks. That gives me
information such as, "how long can I hold to wait for weather improvement
before diverting to my alternate" (and still have comfortable reserves when
I land there). And that scenario does occur in this part of the world.

It is certainly possible to adopt practices that would make knowledge of
your fuel capacity relatively unimportant. And if you choose to fly that
way, that's your decision. But I'd like to be able to get more utility out
of my airplane, and knowing its limitations allows me to operate at a safe
margin within those limitations.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 17:28:17 GMT, "Neil Gould"
wrote:

The FARs address minimum fuel levels when you arrive at your destination.
If you have less than the required amount when you land, you are in
violation.

Perhaps in Part 135 or 121, but I fly under Part 91. Where in Part 91 is
there a regulation indicating how much fuel you have to have when you land?

So far as I know, the regulations regarding fuel reserves have to do with
planning, and how much is on board at the time you depart, given forecasts,
winds, etc. Perhaps I'm looking in the wrong place?

In any event, how does not knowing your fuel capacity enable you to be less
likely to violate these regulations than knowing your fuel capacity?


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

Roy Smith wrote:

What in particular makes you not like JPI?

For me, I avoid them because they're absolute *******s. I will not support them
with my money.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.