Flaps on take-off and landing

A friend of mine was a pilot for the State of Illinois.
They were flying the governor to Washington, DC in the King
Air [about 20 years ago]. Somewhere near Cleveland [I
think] they saw a flicker and then had a DC 9 at their
altitude pass right to left a few hundred feet in front.
Turned out the sector controller had forgotten to issue the
higher altitude to the DC 9. The Governor did get a
personal phone call from the Sec DOT ad the Admin at the FAA
with an apology.

The form the pilot filled out had this question, "What the
PICs first action after the near mid-air?"

The pilot wrote down, "Changed shorts"




"Stubby" wrote in
message . ..
|
|
| Jim Macklin wrote:
| ...
| You can also use the flaps to "jump over" a fence or
ditch
| that you see at the last moment before a forced landing
if
| they are up for the glide.
| ...
| Yes and that's one lesson I'll never forget. The
instructor had me do a
| power-off "short approach" and told me I was *not* allowed
to apply
| power no matter how bad I thought it was! The pucker
factor increased
| enormously and I could see the edge of the hill under the
runway
| looming. Certain that we were going to crash into it, I
was begging to
| add power. The instructor calmly demonstrated how to use
flaps just to
| get a few more feet and complete the landing. It was a
good lesson but
| I think he owes me some new underwear.

Stubby wrote:


Jim Macklin wrote:
...

You can also use the flaps to "jump over" a fence or ditch that you
see at the last moment before a forced landing if they are up for the
glide.

...
Yes and that's one lesson I'll never forget. The instructor had me do a
power-off "short approach" and told me I was *not* allowed to apply
power no matter how bad I thought it was! The pucker factor increased
enormously and I could see the edge of the hill under the runway
looming. Certain that we were going to crash into it, I was begging to
add power. The instructor calmly demonstrated how to use flaps just to
get a few more feet and complete the landing. It was a good lesson but
I think he owes me some new underwear.
That is why I like to plan just a little high and slip the last couple
of feet for the runway. During my commerical check ride I was coming up
a little short on a similated engine out and pointed the nose down to
gain airspeed. Work just find and landed right on the numbers. The
examiner said that was great. I passed the check ride.

--

Regards, Ross
C-172F 180HP
KSWI

Ross Richardson wrote:

During my commerical check ride I was coming up
a little short on a similated engine out and pointed the nose down to
gain airspeed. Work just find and landed right on the numbers.

I'm guessing that you were below best glide speed at the time?

Jim Macklin wrote:
Johnson Bar


You can also use the flaps to "jump over" a fence or ditch
that you see at the last moment before a forced landing if
they are up for the glide.

If you have ones that react fast. I loved the "johnson-bar"
flaps in the 170's and early 172's. In the electric flapped
172's it is doubtful you could pull that manouver. The Navion
hydraulic flaps are even slower.

True, different airplanes have different characteristics.
The early Helio Couriers had two hand cranks on the ceiling
on a concentric shaft. The small handle was for trim and
the longer handle was for the flaps. The Helio could
take-off with the full span flaps [just a very few feet lost
to ailerons, spoilers being primary roll control]. Helio
even had instructions in their flight manual for the H295 on
how to take-off when the mud was over the top of the tires
[ a real soft field]. Full flaps, full throttle and pump
the elevator full forward and aft would cause the airplane
to climb out of the mud and then take-off.

On dry ground the H295 would take-off in as little as two
airplane lengths. The factory had a grass strip next to the
assembly building. They would land and take-off day in and
out, from the 300 feet of grass, even with straight EDO
floats.



"Ron Natalie" wrote in message
m...
| Jim Macklin wrote:
| Johnson Bar
|
|
| You can also use the flaps to "jump over" a fence or
ditch
| that you see at the last moment before a forced landing
if
| they are up for the glide.
|
| If you have ones that react fast. I loved the
"johnson-bar"
| flaps in the 170's and early 172's. In the electric
flapped
| 172's it is doubtful you could pull that manouver. The
Navion
| hydraulic flaps are even slower.
|

Jim Macklin wrote:
On dry ground the H295 would take-off in as little as two
airplane lengths. The factory had a grass strip next to the
assembly building. They would land and take-off day in and
out, from the 300 feet of grass, even with straight EDO
floats.



Jungle Aviation and Radio Service has their own field in Waxhaw, NC called
JAARS-Townsend. I used to go over there just to watch the Helio Courier pilots
do their stuff. It was absolutely amazing.

They'd stand on the brakes, go to full power, pop the tail up in one length, and
be airborne in another. I suspect you could sprint alongside it and keep up for
a few seconds.

The Helio didn't just climb out of impossibly short strips... it had six seats
and could carry a load.

JAARS is a missionary outfit, if anybody wonders. They used to have missions in
New Guinea and down in South America... don't know about now. They also
operated DC-3s and some other birds (can't remember now).




--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

Jim Macklin wrote:
But the flaps move the center of lift aft on the wing and
you need back elevator pressure to force the main gear
(trike) or tailwheel on the ground to prevent weather vaning
and skidding the wheels under braking. The flaps will tend
to lift the lift the tail and you need to follow through on
the flare to lever the balance point on the main gear.

Airplanes like the 150, 172 and 182 will pitch up on flap
application. The downwash off the flaps stikes the stab and pushes the
tail down. A 185 or Glastar will pitch down; I suppose the lower
position of the stab has something to do with it.

I once owned an Auster AOP 6. It had no pitch change with
flap application, and those flaps were serious big Zap flaps. The
elevator had two trim tabs: one was the usual manually-operated tab,
and the other was connected to the flap mechanism to zero out any pitch
changes when the flaps were raised or lowered. That old airplane would
land in 200' (half of book figures) if an approach was made at 1.1 Vso
and the Johnson-bar flaps were suddenly raised just before the wheels
hit the grass. Why did we need to put electric flaps in small
airplanes? Same technique works in the 185.
The Auster's brakes, on the other hand, were less than
enthusiastic, so one could clamp them on before touchdown and really
get ahead of the game.
Not that I'm recommending that Auster owners go try it...

Dan

The Beech T tails are very nice to fly, big enough and out
of prop and downwash.


wrote in message
ups.com...
|
| Jim Macklin wrote:
| But the flaps move the center of lift aft on the wing
and
| you need back elevator pressure to force the main gear
| (trike) or tailwheel on the ground to prevent weather
vaning
| and skidding the wheels under braking. The flaps will
tend
| to lift the lift the tail and you need to follow through
on
| the flare to lever the balance point on the main gear.
|
| Airplanes like the 150, 172 and 182 will pitch up
on flap
| application. The downwash off the flaps stikes the stab
and pushes the
| tail down. A 185 or Glastar will pitch down; I suppose the
lower
| position of the stab has something to do with it.
|
| I once owned an Auster AOP 6. It had no pitch
change with
| flap application, and those flaps were serious big Zap
flaps. The
| elevator had two trim tabs: one was the usual
manually-operated tab,
| and the other was connected to the flap mechanism to zero
out any pitch
| changes when the flaps were raised or lowered. That old
airplane would
| land in 200' (half of book figures) if an approach was
made at 1.1 Vso
| and the Johnson-bar flaps were suddenly raised just before
the wheels
| hit the grass. Why did we need to put electric flaps in
small
| airplanes? Same technique works in the 185.
| The Auster's brakes, on the other hand, were less
than
| enthusiastic, so one could clamp them on before touchdown
and really
| get ahead of the game.
| Not that I'm recommending that Auster owners go
try it...
|
| Dan
|

In article ,
Cubdriver usenet AT danford.net wrote:

The first plane with flaps that I flew was a PA-18 Super Cub. When I
reached for the flap lever (it has a name, but I forget), what I got
was a rocket from my instructor in the back seat. "Don't touch
anything till you stop rolling!" Of course the PA-18 is a taildragger
and more sensitive to a pilot's inattention.

I make the same point of my students transitioning to retracts. I make
them pull off the runway and come to a full stop before cleaning up the
airplane. You really don't want to get confused and pull up the gear
instead of the flaps will you're still rolling out on the runway. Makes
for really impressive short-field performance, but requires a lot of power
to taxi to the ramp.

Think it can't happen? It does. I once had a student who owned a C-206
for umpty years and was learning the Bonanza. Flap and gear levers in
opposite positions on the two models. Damn, am I glad the squat switches
worked.

In article ,
Roy Smith wrote:



Think it can't happen? It does. I once had a student who owned a C-206
for umpty years and was learning the Bonanza. Flap and gear levers in
opposite positions on the two models. Damn, am I glad the squat switches
worked.

Interesting 206 that had a "gear lever". G