"What if" questions regarding TSR.2, Avro Arrow

I'm toying with a few alt history ideas regarding the late 1960s and
early 1970s...specifically UK and Commonwealth involvement in a
massive anti-guerilla/counterinsurgency campaign in North America.
Given that, if the TSR.2 and the Avro Arrow had been built and entered
series production, what kind of role might they play in such a
campaign? Both were designed with the Big, Bad Sovs in mind, either
rolling across the Fulda Gap or lumbering over the Arctic. But like
the F-105 or F-111, could these aircraft that almost were have found a
new role during times of less-than-conventional crisis? Any insight
or opinion would be welcome.

"M. Santoro" wrote in message
om...
I'm toying with a few alt history ideas regarding the late 1960s and
early 1970s...specifically UK and Commonwealth involvement in a
massive anti-guerilla/counterinsurgency campaign in North America.

Agaunst whom ?

Are you postulating a Free Newfoundland rebellion

Given that, if the TSR.2 and the Avro Arrow had been built and entered
series production, what kind of role might they play in such a
campaign?

None


Both were designed with the Big, Bad Sovs in mind, either
rolling across the Fulda Gap or lumbering over the Arctic. But like
the F-105 or F-111, could these aircraft that almost were have found a
new role during times of less-than-conventional crisis? Any insight
or opinion would be welcome.

Take a look at Northern Ireland, I dont recall much
call for air strikes there.

Keith

"M. Santoro" wrote in message
om...
I'm toying with a few alt history ideas regarding the late 1960s and
early 1970s...specifically UK and Commonwealth involvement in a
massive anti-guerilla/counterinsurgency campaign in North America.
Given that, if the TSR.2 and the Avro Arrow had been built and entered
series production, what kind of role might they play in such a
campaign? Both were designed with the Big, Bad Sovs in mind, either
rolling across the Fulda Gap or lumbering over the Arctic. But like
the F-105 or F-111, could these aircraft that almost were have found a
new role during times of less-than-conventional crisis? Any insight
or opinion would be welcome.


Do I know you from www.whatifmodelers.com and
http://www.whatifmodelers.com/forum/ at all?
If not, drop in and give us all a shout. Remember the TSR.2 wasn't just a
nuclear bomber but also carried regular loads like the Tornado does today.

Nick

"Nick Pedley" wrote in message ...
"M. Santoro" wrote in message
om...
I'm toying with a few alt history ideas regarding the late 1960s and
early 1970s...specifically UK and Commonwealth involvement in a
massive anti-guerilla/counterinsurgency campaign in North America.
Given that, if the TSR.2 and the Avro Arrow had been built and entered
series production, what kind of role might they play in such a
campaign? Both were designed with the Big, Bad Sovs in mind, either
rolling across the Fulda Gap or lumbering over the Arctic. But like
the F-105 or F-111, could these aircraft that almost were have found a
new role during times of less-than-conventional crisis? Any insight
or opinion would be welcome.


The Canadians would have probably just "armed" Tutors instead for COIN work:

http://www.airforce.forces.ca/grfx/e...WGD00-0247.jpg

Rob

Keith,

I'll accept "none" as a valid answer! The story idea assumes that the
US rebellion failed in 1776, only to flare up again two centuries
later. If the RAF or c-wealth air forces were ill-equipped to fight
that kind of war, so much the better from a storywriting perspective.

Thanks,
- Martin

"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message ...
"M. Santoro" wrote in message
om...
I'm toying with a few alt history ideas regarding the late 1960s and
early 1970s...specifically UK and Commonwealth involvement in a
massive anti-guerilla/counterinsurgency campaign in North America.

Agaunst whom ?

Are you postulating a Free Newfoundland rebellion

Given that, if the TSR.2 and the Avro Arrow had been built and entered
series production, what kind of role might they play in such a
campaign?

None


Both were designed with the Big, Bad Sovs in mind, either
rolling across the Fulda Gap or lumbering over the Arctic. But like
the F-105 or F-111, could these aircraft that almost were have found a
new role during times of less-than-conventional crisis? Any insight
or opinion would be welcome.

Take a look at Northern Ireland, I dont recall much
call for air strikes there.

Keith

Thanks Nick, and will do. I think your forum might be what I'm
looking for in terms of help or ideas.

Cheers
- Martin

"Nick Pedley" wrote in message ...
"M. Santoro" wrote in message
om...
I'm toying with a few alt history ideas regarding the late 1960s and
early 1970s...specifically UK and Commonwealth involvement in a
massive anti-guerilla/counterinsurgency campaign in North America.
Given that, if the TSR.2 and the Avro Arrow had been built and entered
series production, what kind of role might they play in such a
campaign? Both were designed with the Big, Bad Sovs in mind, either
rolling across the Fulda Gap or lumbering over the Arctic. But like
the F-105 or F-111, could these aircraft that almost were have found a
new role during times of less-than-conventional crisis? Any insight
or opinion would be welcome.


Do I know you from www.whatifmodelers.com and
http://www.whatifmodelers.com/forum/ at all?
If not, drop in and give us all a shout. Remember the TSR.2 wasn't just a
nuclear bomber but also carried regular loads like the Tornado does today.

Nick

"M. Santoro" wrote in message
om...
Keith,

I'll accept "none" as a valid answer! The story idea assumes that the
US rebellion failed in 1776, only to flare up again two centuries
later. If the RAF or c-wealth air forces were ill-equipped to fight
that kind of war, so much the better from a storywriting perspective.

Thanks,
- Martin


If the rebellion of 1776 had failed I'd still expect that the North American
colonies would achieve indepedence following the same sort of
model as Canada, Australia and New Zealand.

Keith

On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 12:49:30 -0000, "Keith Willshaw"
wrote:


"M. Santoro" wrote in message
. com...
Keith,

I'll accept "none" as a valid answer! The story idea assumes that the
US rebellion failed in 1776, only to flare up again two centuries
later. If the RAF or c-wealth air forces were ill-equipped to fight
that kind of war, so much the better from a storywriting perspective.

If the rebellion of 1776 had failed I'd still expect that the North American
colonies would achieve indepedence following the same sort of
model as Canada, Australia and New Zealand.

And indeed it would be likely to be the Commonwealth of North America,
including both the Canadian provinces as well as the American
colonies, probably with a capital in either New York or Boston.

An interesting what-if would be whether the area of the Louisiana
Purchase and the South Western "aquisitions" would have occured - I
can see Louisiana being taken post 1815 as reparations, but I'm not
sure if the Empire would have taken on Texas, California and so on.

Peter Kemp

"Peter Kemp" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 12:49:30 -0000, "Keith Willshaw"
wrote:



If the rebellion of 1776 had failed I'd still expect that the North
American
colonies would achieve indepedence following the same sort of
model as Canada, Australia and New Zealand.

And indeed it would be likely to be the Commonwealth of North America,
including both the Canadian provinces as well as the American
colonies, probably with a capital in either New York or Boston.


An interesting what-if would be whether the area of the Louisiana
Purchase and the South Western "aquisitions" would have occured - I
can see Louisiana being taken post 1815 as reparations, but I'm not
sure if the Empire would have taken on Texas, California and so on.


Which might make Mexico a rather more signifcant nation than
it is today but would probably prevented the American civil
war since slavery would have been abolished in the south
in the 1830's as it was elsewhere in the Empire

What price the great Mexican-American War of 1900

Keith

On 1/27/04 12:11 PM, in article , "Keith
Willshaw" wrote:

...would probably [have] prevented the American civil
war since slavery would have been abolished in the south
in the 1830's as it was elsewhere in the Empire.

I think you give too little weight to the same factors which made it
necessary a generation later.

Abolition may have precipitated a revolution and break from England as
taxation and other grievances did two generations earlier.



-------
Jack
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