Question for the real pilots

I was flying out of VGT last month (North Las Vegas) heading back to
SLC in an Aztec after a great round of Golf. After getting VFR
clearance from ground to MMM (Mormon Mesa Vortac) which is ENE of
Vegas. Cleared for takeoff and given a heading from the tower, then
handed off to Nellis aproach. The controler gives me heading and asks
intention and sounds like she has marbles in her mouth. I ask her to
repeat instructions and finally get her instructions read back. I am
squawking a descreat code and continuing to follow instructions from
Nellis getting vectored out of the way of inbound F-18's and even a
B-2. All of a sudden out of the blue she calls me and asks me if I
have class B clearance. I gulp hard a couple of times, in all the
vectors and hand offs I realize that I have not received clearance...I
fess up and say noooo. She says "Well, you're right smack in the
middle of Class B airspace". That's it, no instructions. I say,
"Well..., can I get clearance now, or do you want me to go somewhere?"
She gives me the clearance. Whew, first time that has ever happened
to me. I am usually very careful not to bust airspace. Needless to
say I was embarassed but in other instances where I have been vectored
into Class B, such as in this instance, I have always been given the
clearance. I know that it is my responsibility to get the clearance
before flying into the airspace, but if they are giving vectors to
penetrate the airspace, are they at fault as well? Maybe I should
file a NASA report just to be safe, what do you think?

Just thought an aviation based thread might be good for the group.

Cbooth
SEL MEL Instrument

I know that it is my responsibility to get the clearance
before flying into the airspace, but if they are giving vectors to
penetrate the airspace, are they at fault as well? Maybe I should
file a NASA report just to be safe, what do you think?

Yes, file a NASA report. They shouldn't vector you into the Bravo
without giving you those magic words, but it happens.

Jose
--
Get high on gasoline: fly an airplane.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

C Booth wrote:
I know that it is my responsibility to get the clearance
before flying into the airspace, but if they are giving vectors to
penetrate the airspace, are they at fault as well? Maybe I should
file a NASA report just to be safe, what do you think?


Technically no, they are not at fault. As you posted, the responsibility
is yours.

Realistically, I have a problem with a controller that issues a vector into
Class B without providing a clearance. I used to base at a class B airport
and always had to be on guard for that. Often, Approach Control would sound
annoyed when I asked for a Class B clearance that hadn't been given. Too bad
for them.

Filing a NASA report would be a very good idea in this instance.

John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)

--
Message posted via AviationKB.com
http://www.aviationkb.com/Uwe/Forums...ation/200704/1

You must file the NASA report within 10 days of the event,
you said last month, so you missed the deadline for legal
protection. Hope they didn't report you.




"C Booth" wrote in message
...
|I was flying out of VGT last month (North Las Vegas)
heading back to
| SLC in an Aztec after a great round of Golf. After
getting VFR
| clearance from ground to MMM (Mormon Mesa Vortac) which is
ENE of
| Vegas. Cleared for takeoff and given a heading from the
tower, then
| handed off to Nellis aproach. The controler gives me
heading and asks
| intention and sounds like she has marbles in her mouth. I
ask her to
| repeat instructions and finally get her instructions read
back. I am
| squawking a descreat code and continuing to follow
instructions from
| Nellis getting vectored out of the way of inbound F-18's
and even a
| B-2. All of a sudden out of the blue she calls me and
asks me if I
| have class B clearance. I gulp hard a couple of times, in
all the
| vectors and hand offs I realize that I have not received
clearance...I
| fess up and say noooo. She says "Well, you're right smack
in the
| middle of Class B airspace". That's it, no instructions.
I say,
| "Well..., can I get clearance now, or do you want me to go
somewhere?"
| She gives me the clearance. Whew, first time that has
ever happened
| to me. I am usually very careful not to bust airspace.
Needless to
| say I was embarassed but in other instances where I have
been vectored
| into Class B, such as in this instance, I have always been
given the
| clearance. I know that it is my responsibility to get the
clearance
| before flying into the airspace, but if they are giving
vectors to
| penetrate the airspace, are they at fault as well? Maybe
I should
| file a NASA report just to be safe, what do you think?
|
| Just thought an aviation based thread might be good for
the group.
|
| Cbooth
| SEL MEL Instrument

File the NASA report...

But for what it's worth... even on ATC vectors for a climb, if she did not
say the magic words.. and you as PIC did not ask... PIC is to blame.

would you like a phone number to the Nellis Watch Supervisor?
BT

"C Booth" wrote in message
...
I was flying out of VGT last month (North Las Vegas) heading back to
SLC in an Aztec after a great round of Golf. After getting VFR
clearance from ground to MMM (Mormon Mesa Vortac) which is ENE of
Vegas. Cleared for takeoff and given a heading from the tower, then
handed off to Nellis aproach. The controler gives me heading and asks
intention and sounds like she has marbles in her mouth. I ask her to
repeat instructions and finally get her instructions read back. I am
squawking a descreat code and continuing to follow instructions from
Nellis getting vectored out of the way of inbound F-18's and even a
B-2. All of a sudden out of the blue she calls me and asks me if I
have class B clearance. I gulp hard a couple of times, in all the
vectors and hand offs I realize that I have not received clearance...I
fess up and say noooo. She says "Well, you're right smack in the
middle of Class B airspace". That's it, no instructions. I say,
"Well..., can I get clearance now, or do you want me to go somewhere?"
She gives me the clearance. Whew, first time that has ever happened
to me. I am usually very careful not to bust airspace. Needless to
say I was embarassed but in other instances where I have been vectored
into Class B, such as in this instance, I have always been given the
clearance. I know that it is my responsibility to get the clearance
before flying into the airspace, but if they are giving vectors to
penetrate the airspace, are they at fault as well? Maybe I should
file a NASA report just to be safe, what do you think?

Just thought an aviation based thread might be good for the group.

Cbooth
SEL MEL Instrument

On Thu, 12 Apr 2007 16:28:32 -0600, C Booth wrote
in :

I was flying out of VGT last month (North Las Vegas) heading back to
SLC in an Aztec after a great round of Golf. After getting VFR
clearance from ground to MMM (Mormon Mesa Vortac) which is ENE of
Vegas.

Ground Control doesn't issue other than taxi clearances to they?

Cleared for takeoff and given a heading from the tower, then
handed off to Nellis aproach.

Were you inside KLAS Class B airspace when you contacted Nellis
Approach?

The controler gives me heading and asks
intention and sounds like she has marbles in her mouth. I ask her to
repeat instructions and finally get her instructions read back.

If she's vectoring you, I believe it is her responsibility to clear
your transitions through B, C and D terminal airspace. I'd have to
consult FAAO 7110.65R to be su
http://www.faa.gov/regulations_polic...a/7110.65R.pdf

I am
squawking a descreat code and continuing to follow instructions from
Nellis getting vectored out of the way of inbound F-18's and even a
B-2. All of a sudden out of the blue she calls me and asks me if I
have class B clearance. I gulp hard a couple of times, in all the
vectors and hand offs I realize that I have not received clearance...I
fess up and say noooo. She says "Well, you're right smack in the
middle of Class B airspace". That's it, no instructions. I say,
"Well..., can I get clearance now, or do you want me to go somewhere?"

Perhaps she was a trainee and her trainer called the fact that she had
failed to specifically issue you Clearance into Bravo airspace.

She gives me the clearance. Whew, first time that has ever happened
to me. I am usually very careful not to bust airspace.

Sometimes Class Bravo clearance is implied, but it's always best if
you get it explicitly.

Needless to
say I was embarassed but in other instances where I have been vectored
into Class B, such as in this instance, I have always been given the
clearance. I know that it is my responsibility to get the clearance
before flying into the airspace,

That's my understanding also.

but if they are giving vectors to
penetrate the airspace, are they at fault as well?

It's all in FAAO 7110.65R
http://www.faa.gov/regulations_polic...a/7110.65R.pdf

Maybe I should
file a NASA report just to be safe, what do you think?

I think it's always prudent to file a NASA form. Not only does it
usually save you from the ordeal of an enforcement action, but the
information you provide is used to make the NAS safer.

I believe the ATC tapes are available for ~15 days. You might phone
Nellis approach and arrange to discuss the incident with the
controller. She would normally have to file an FAA form for action to
be taken. She probably didn't do that, or you would have heard those
other little magic words, "Pleas phone ATC upon landing." At least
you'll get a chance to see what's up.

Just thought an aviation based thread might be good for the group.

I couldn't agree more. Thanks.

Cbooth
SEL MEL Instrument

On Apr 12, 5:28 pm, C Booth wrote:

snip unfortunate airspace bust

What a coinky-dink... I did the same in my pal's Aztec a few years ago
flying back to CT from Reading, PA. I had a decent tailwind & GS was
over 200kts and was on with NY approach coming up on JFK. Right about
then I got that bad feeling that I just screwed up and realized I
never asked for a Bravo clearance. Oops. Nothing came of it, I
suspect, because I'm competant on the radio and that controller's
sector was pretty busy that day so he probably didn't have the time to
bust me. Whew. File that one away under "Stupid Pilot Tricks".

On Apr 12, 5:28 pm, C Booth wrote:
I was flying out of VGT last month (North Las Vegas) heading back to
SLC in an Aztec after a great round of Golf. After getting VFR
clearance from ground to MMM (Mormon Mesa Vortac) which is ENE of
Vegas. Cleared for takeoff and given a heading from the tower, then
handed off to Nellis aproach. The controler gives me heading and asks
intention and sounds like she has marbles in her mouth. I ask her to
repeat instructions and finally get her instructions read back. I am
squawking a descreat code and continuing to follow instructions from
Nellis getting vectored out of the way of inbound F-18's and even a
B-2. All of a sudden out of the blue she calls me and asks me if I
have class B clearance. I gulp hard a couple of times, in all the
vectors and hand offs I realize that I have not received clearance...I
fess up and say noooo. She says "Well, you're right smack in the
middle of Class B airspace". That's it, no instructions. I say,
"Well..., can I get clearance now, or do you want me to go somewhere?"
She gives me the clearance. Whew, first time that has ever happened
to me. I am usually very careful not to bust airspace. Needless to
say I was embarassed but in other instances where I have been vectored
into Class B, such as in this instance, I have always been given the
clearance. I know that it is my responsibility to get the clearance
before flying into the airspace, but if they are giving vectors to
penetrate the airspace, are they at fault as well? Maybe I should
file a NASA report just to be safe, what do you think?

Just thought an aviation based thread might be good for the group.

Cbooth
SEL MEL Instrument

Hello

You should file a NASA report promptly. I doubt anything will come of
it, but a NASA report in any event will go into the data base on Class
Bravo incursions (inadvertant) and will work out to both the system
and other benefits (not to mention some possible ones for you).

I have read your post a few times...it has been so long since I flew
VFR out there but...a couple of questions come to mind if you are
interested in pursuing this.

My trick in dealing VFR with class B airspace is on the initial call
up to request "clearance through the Bravo" in ANY event if you even
think that you are going to come anywhere close to it. "Radar
contact" and "Clearance through the Bravo" seem the same but they are
not...particularly when you are not landing at the Bravo "surface"
airport.

I doubt anything will come of it because the controller made an
internal error (I believe I have asked some FSDO people about this and
have a name that will tell me on the record what the controller
"internal policies" are to perfunctory clear you through if they start
giving vectors) by giving and you accepting vectors and then
"discovering" that you were "smack dab" in the middle of the
airspace. This is true particularly on a "handoff" from a tower
controller.

A NASA report would be a good plan

Robert CFII/MEI ATP

Larry Dighera wrote:
Sometimes Class Bravo clearance is implied, but it's always best if
you get it explicitly.

Erk. Class B clearance must always, always, always, always (always) be
given explicitly with "... cleared to enter the Class Bravo
airspace...". Any other usage isn't an implied clearance.

You can get implied clearance through C and D space if they use your
full callsign, but B is the big special 80,000 lbs. gorilla, and needs
full, explicit clearance.

As to the OP, technically speaking it was mostly your responsibility to
get the clearance, but both parties were really at fault, and no real
harm came because of it, so I wouldn't worry too terribly much.

TheSmokingGnu

Sometimes Class Bravo clearance is implied, but it's always best if
you get it explicitly.

When, under VFR, is a class Bravo clearance implied, such that this
implied clearance can be relied on at an enforcement hearing?

Jose
--
Get high on gasoline: fly an airplane.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.