Where are the armed pilots?

"John Harlow" wrote in message
...
To clarify, I carry a gun everywhere.

What are you so afraid of, Nomen?

People like you?

"Newps" wrote in message
news:OLIGb.479703$275.1378510@attbi_s53...




What a sad way to live - basing decisions on probabilities of things
happening....

That's how you make 99% of your decisions.

The other 1% is based on hindsight.

"Brien K. Meehan" wrote in message
om...
Judah wrote in message
.. .

Of course it's absurd. That's my point. It is no more or less absurd
than
the OP who drew the conclusion that it is too risky to fly on an
airplane
without an armed pilot, due to the hint that was provided on 9/11.

That compares apples and oranges. These analogies make no sense.


http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/Northeast....reut/index.ht
ml

One interesting thing about this incident is that it took place in New
York City, where only the criminals are allowed to have guns.

And NYC is the location of the fire bomb that killed 47 in the night club.

Nomen Nescio ] wrote in
:

It seems that some people got the impression that I was talking about
carrying a weapon to just the airport specifically for anti-terrorist
defense.
To clarify, I carry a gun everywhere. Well, actually......my wife
makes me put it on the night table before
bed, and contrary to what some people think.......I don't shower with
it.
I was more asking if people who could legally carry will leave it
behind when they go to the airport and
if they don't leave it behind, what do they do with it.
I have to say that I am surprised at the number of people who feel
that they are careful enough to take
to the air and yet don't think they could carry a gun without
accidentally shooting someone.
Some VERY interesting responses.


I have to say that I don't fault you for your feeling the need to carry a
weapon. Personally, I support the right to bear arms, and I have wielded
weapons in the past. But for a variety of reasons, not the least of which
is the fact that I have children at home, I prefer not to own a handgun
myself.

To your point about being a pilot who is afraid to bear the
responsibility of a firearm, it seems to me that owning a firearm is a
much bigger responsibility than flying an airplane. Most mistakes one
would make in a Cessna are recoverable, while most mistakes one would
make with a firearm would likely result in bodily harm (not necessarily
one's own).

I am surprised that you would minimize the responsibility of owning a
handgun by comparing it to that of piloting a plane. As I am sure you
know, the responsibility of operating and owning a handgun does not end
when you put the gun on your nighttable at night. Your weapon can get
misplaced, lost, stolen, or removed from a gun safe (or nightstand) by a
curious, intelligent, determined pre-teen who wants to show off dad's gun
to his best buddy. For me, that is unthinkable, and the risk is not worth
it. On the other hand, if someone happens to steal the plane that I
rented yesterday to fly to a business trip, I will be concerned and
annoyed, but it's not really even my problem. And if I owned a plane, it
would be unlikely that my children would even be able to get the plane
started even if they could get to the plane for a joyride.

Furthermore, I am somewhat surprised that you would seem to mock someone
like myself who is simply not interested in partaking of the consequences
of drawing a weapon on someone, and possibly taking life from another
person, accidentally or intentionally. Or worse yet, of allowing myself
to be responsible, even if unintentionally, for one of my children taking
a life, quite possibly his or her own.


On an interesting aside, it would seem to me that someone who carries a
gun everywhere he goes, even to bed, is quite possbily a fanatic
extremist. Perhaps not to the same degree as someone who would commit
suicide and/or murder for the sake of his beliefs... But then again, if
you draw your weapon on someone, you are either about to commit one or
the other...

Who am I to judge? Like I said, I support the right to bear arms. I think
violent crime would be reduced substantially if the people who committed
the crimes had the fear of return fire ringing in their ears. But I
prefer not to be barrel-to-barrel with a 2-bit mugger, and I prefer not
to have to worry if I might have left a bullets in the chamber before I
went to bed.

The consequences are much milder if I forget to close my flight plan.

Ron,
I live in the US. See Jay's Rouge website under P for a picture of me
and my airplane.

Michelle

Ron Lee wrote:

Ron,

No I am not married, but you had better not enter my bedroom without
permission ;-) I have a 95+% kill rate at the range. I hit where I aim.

Michelle


hmmm, I'm afraid to ask how you know that rate...



Does not matter. I will stay out of Canada just to be on the safe
side.

Ron Lee



--

Michelle P ATP-ASEL, CP-AMEL, and AMT-A&P

"Elisabeth" a Maule M-7-235B (no two are alike)

Volunteer Pilot, Angel Flight Mid-Atlantic

Volunteer Builder, Habitat for Humanity

Judah wrote:
Nomen Nescio ] wrote in
:


It seems that some people got the impression that I was talking about
carrying a weapon to just the airport specifically for anti-terrorist
defense.
To clarify, I carry a gun everywhere. Well, actually......my wife
makes me put it on the night table before
bed, and contrary to what some people think.......I don't shower with
it.
I was more asking if people who could legally carry will leave it
behind when they go to the airport and
if they don't leave it behind, what do they do with it.
I have to say that I am surprised at the number of people who feel
that they are careful enough to take
to the air and yet don't think they could carry a gun without
accidentally shooting someone.
Some VERY interesting responses.



I have to say that I don't fault you for your feeling the need to carry a
weapon. Personally, I support the right to bear arms, and I have wielded
weapons in the past. But for a variety of reasons, not the least of which
is the fact that I have children at home, I prefer not to own a handgun
myself.

To your point about being a pilot who is afraid to bear the
responsibility of a firearm, it seems to me that owning a firearm is a
much bigger responsibility than flying an airplane. Most mistakes one
would make in a Cessna are recoverable, while most mistakes one would
make with a firearm would likely result in bodily harm (not necessarily
one's own).

I am surprised that you would minimize the responsibility of owning a
handgun by comparing it to that of piloting a plane. As I am sure you
know, the responsibility of operating and owning a handgun does not end
when you put the gun on your nighttable at night. Your weapon can get
misplaced, lost, stolen, or removed from a gun safe (or nightstand) by a
curious, intelligent, determined pre-teen who wants to show off dad's gun
to his best buddy. For me, that is unthinkable, and the risk is not worth
it. On the other hand, if someone happens to steal the plane that I
rented yesterday to fly to a business trip, I will be concerned and
annoyed, but it's not really even my problem. And if I owned a plane, it
would be unlikely that my children would even be able to get the plane
started even if they could get to the plane for a joyride.

Furthermore, I am somewhat surprised that you would seem to mock someone
like myself who is simply not interested in partaking of the consequences
of drawing a weapon on someone, and possibly taking life from another
person, accidentally or intentionally. Or worse yet, of allowing myself
to be responsible, even if unintentionally, for one of my children taking
a life, quite possibly his or her own.


On an interesting aside, it would seem to me that someone who carries a
gun everywhere he goes, even to bed, is quite possbily a fanatic
extremist. Perhaps not to the same degree as someone who would commit
suicide and/or murder for the sake of his beliefs... But then again, if
you draw your weapon on someone, you are either about to commit one or
the other...

You are generally not allowed to draw a weapon on someone unless you
are in fear for your life or the life of someone else, or fear suffering
some grievous bodily harm. In this situation, if one uses that weapon
to protect his/her own life, or the lives of family members, and the
use of that weapon results in the criminal losing his/her life, are
you *actually* suggesting that a *murder* has then been committed
against that criminal? Do you really mean to say this?


Who am I to judge? Like I said, I support the right to bear arms. I think
violent crime would be reduced substantially if the people who committed
the crimes had the fear of return fire ringing in their ears. But I
prefer not to be barrel-to-barrel with a 2-bit mugger, and I prefer not
to have to worry if I might have left a bullets in the chamber before I
went to bed.

The consequences are much milder if I forget to close my flight plan.

The consequences are mild for *you* because you may be safe and warm
somewhere. The search and rescue pilots are the ones who may face
serious consequences should they have a problem in flight looking
for *you* due to your thoughtless failure to close your plan.

The carrying of deadly weapons surely is not a practice for everyone
just like being a pilot is not for everyone. There actually are
many similarities between the two, and carelessness with either
can result in injury or death. Successful self defense requires
a "mind set" that you and your family are more valuable
than the "2-bit mugger". If you prefer that your mugger be the
only one with a weapon, you probably are wise to stay away from
owning or carrying firearms.

You may do whatever makes you feel good, it's fine with me,
but most people who include firearms in their security strategies
are no more "fanatic extremists" than those who look inside
their tanks to see if fuel is actually in them before taking off.
Like so many things in flying, its simply another way of
stacking the odds in your favor. I don't know what state you
live in, but it is quite likely you, your wife and your kids
are enjoying a lower probability of being killed because of
all those "fanatic extremists" that lawfully carry concealed
weapons.

Tom Pappano, PP-ASEL-IA

Tom Pappano wrote in
:

Judah wrote:
snip

You are generally not allowed to draw a weapon on someone unless you
are in fear for your life or the life of someone else, or fear
suffering some grievous bodily harm. In this situation, if one uses
that weapon to protect his/her own life, or the lives of family
members, and the use of that weapon results in the criminal losing
his/her life, are you *actually* suggesting that a *murder* has then
been committed against that criminal? Do you really mean to say this?

Taking a life is taking a life. Whatever justification you make for it, it
is still taking something away from someone else that you cannot give back.

That said, I agree that if someone was about to take my life or the life of
someone in my family, I would want a method to protect myself, and that
could involve murder. But quite honestly, I am certain that after
committing that murder in self-defense, I would have to deal with many
consequences, including emotional ones. The biggest question in my mind
would have been to wonder if there were some other way to have protected
myself without taking the life of the other person.

The consequences are much milder if I forget to close my flight plan.

The consequences are mild for *you* because you may be safe and warm
somewhere. The search and rescue pilots are the ones who may face
serious consequences should they have a problem in flight looking
for *you* due to your thoughtless failure to close your plan.

Actually, the one time I did forget to close my flight plan, I got a call
in my car about 15 minutes later from the FBO where I rent the plane that
they got a call to check on my arrival and reminding me to close my flight
plan in the future. Through some stroke of incredible fortunate, no Civil
Air Patrol pilots were killed in that phone transaction.

The carrying of deadly weapons surely is not a practice for everyone
just like being a pilot is not for everyone. There actually are
many similarities between the two, and carelessness with either
can result in injury or death. Successful self defense requires
a "mind set" that you and your family are more valuable
than the "2-bit mugger". If you prefer that your mugger be the
only one with a weapon, you probably are wise to stay away from
owning or carrying firearms.

From my understanding, most 2-bit muggers are equally as afraid to take a
life as I am, unless faced with a barrel aimed back in their direction...

You may do whatever makes you feel good, it's fine with me,
but most people who include firearms in their security strategies
are no more "fanatic extremists" than those who look inside
their tanks to see if fuel is actually in them before taking off.
Like so many things in flying, its simply another way of
stacking the odds in your favor. I don't know what state you
live in, but it is quite likely you, your wife and your kids
are enjoying a lower probability of being killed because of
all those "fanatic extremists" that lawfully carry concealed
weapons.

I don't agree. One who includes firearms in their security strategy is
probably as reasonable as one who examines the fuel level in his gas tanks
before every flight. But to me, going to sleep with a loaded gun under your
pillow seems extreme, and quite possibly more dangerous than beneficial...

Nomen Nescio ] writes:

In 1975 a friend from high school was working the night shift,
alone, in a convenience store. Around ten at night a guy walks in,
pulls a .45 auto and demands money. Not being the "hero" type, my
friend gives him all the money in the register. He was then forced
into the back room of the store where the a**hole killed him with a
single shot to the back of the head. The cops caught the a**hole
within a couple of days and he confessed. When asked why he murdered
the guy, he responded "Uh, I dunno, I just felt like shootin' him".
This, BTW, is not a violent town. We have had 3 murders in 30 years,
here, including my friend. I refuse to EVER be in a position where
someone will get me to comply with their whim of "Uh, I dunno, I
just felt like shootin' him". I will shoot anyone who wants to stick
a gun in my face, I will shoot until they are no longer a threat,
and I will feel no moral, religious, or personal guilt about doing
so.

The key rule here is "Don't go to the secondary crime scene". That's
where the body is usually found.

But to me, going to sleep with a loaded gun under your pillow seems
extreme, and quite possibly more dangerous than beneficial...

I have never known anyone who was stupid enough to sleep with a
loaded gun under their pillow!

Me neither. Mine are in push-button lockboxes fastened to the wall by
the head of my bead.
--
David Dyer-Bennet, , www.dd-b.net/dd-b/
RKBA: noguns-nomoney.com www.dd-b.net/carry/
Photos: dd-b.lighthunters.net Snapshots: www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/
Dragaera/Steven Brust: dragaera.info/

Judah wrote:
Tom Pappano wrote in
:


Judah wrote:

snip
From my understanding, most 2-bit muggers are equally as afraid to take a
life as I am, unless faced with a barrel aimed back in their direction...

Well, these days armed robbers frequently seem to be addicts seeking
quick cash. Drug use tends to affect judgement, so don't assume that
your mugger is standing there pondering the risks vs. benefits of
his actions. Just recently here, a young female robbed a bicyclist
in the middle of the afternoon in the presence of assorted bystanders.
After relieving him of his billfold she immediately shoots him dead.
She did this with a police officer just accross the street. The cop
runs over to arrest her, she draws on him and he shoots and kills her.
Not a lot deep thought processes occuring on her part.
In another recent case, a convenience store clerk was coldly murdered
after compliantly handing over what was in the till. The value of
his life apparently was less than $40. Also near here recently, a young
asshole with some "lingering issues" about his ex-wife murdered a
couple so that he could use their home as a base to stalk his ex.
After nearly killing her son and beating her mother, he goes into
hiding and a huge, costly and drawn out manhunt ensues. He eventually
gets away, and kidnaps an Arkansas doctor and his wife, forcing them
to drive him to Texas. The doctor eventually retrieves a small .22
pistol he kept in his van, and shoots the fugitive, wounding him.
The fugitive flees and is arrested after seeking medical treatment.
A tiny pistol carried by a "regular guy" going about his business
brought this whole mess to a close. The fugitive had tried to
kill the doctor and his wife, but amazingly, a defect prevented
the weapon from discharging. My point in all this? I guess
my point is that these days "fear" (other than fear of being killed
themselves) no longer seems to constrain the actions of many
criminals, and that the life of a victim essentially has a value of
zero.



But to me, going to sleep with a loaded gun under your
pillow seems extreme, and quite possibly more dangerous than beneficial...

I think this practice is is reserved for movies and television. Most
people realize this is not a safe thing to do.

Tom Pappano, PP-ASEL-IA

p.s. The City of Depew, OK presented the heroic doctor and his wife a
modest cash reward, and two new *larger calibre* pistols 8-)

Hi Nomen,
I too appreciate your ability to debate this topic in a reasonable manner
(although admittedly, I think it has evolved off-topic from the r.a.p
group. )

I am fairly uneducated when it comes to handguns, so it is good to know
that your weapon is safe from accidental discharge when the safeties are
engaged. I also agree that it would probably be useful for both me and my
family to learn about guns to be safer.

I don't believe there is a clear right or wrong answer here. There is no
way to really predict what will happen in a situation as you have
described. You're absolutely right - it is possible that I would be in a
better position with a gun than without one, and that the a**hole on the
other side of the table will shoot me for kicks even if I am unarmed. It's
also possible that in that type of situation, if the guy is waving his gun
in my face, by the time I pull my gun out, he's already got a couple of
shots off into my face - especially if my weapon is stored unloaded and
with locks and safeties engaged...

There are also probably tactics that can be employed to stack the odds in
your favor in either scenario... I wouldn't want to second-guess your
friend's unfortunate situation, but it seems to me there are also stories
of workers who pulled guns out from behind the counters and were shot
before they could defend themselves anyway. And there are stories of clerks
who were able to distract the assalant and either run away or even disarm
the attacker, without having a weapon of their own...

The reality is, I don't think anyone can ever guarantee that they won't
ever lose a battle (ie: succumb to someone else's whim). Even Sun Tzu says
that there are times to run away.

So while I believe this discussion has definitely steered me to some degree
toward the possibility of someday owning a firearm, and the likelihood of
someday soon learning more about them, I also do not feel that it is a
panacea that will prevent me and my family from being victims of a violent
crime.

I also apologize for the comment about sleeping with a gun under your
pillow - it was a bit of a dig in response to your comment about taking
your gun to bed if your wife did not object... I am glad that we both agree
it would be extremely unsafe.



Nomen Nescio ] wrote in
:

From: Judah

From my understanding, most 2-bit muggers are equally as afraid to take
a life as I am, unless faced with a barrel aimed back in their
direction...

Maybe most, but not all!
In 1975 a friend from high school was working the night shift, alone,
in a convenience store. Around ten at night a guy walks in, pulls a .45
auto and demands money. Not being the "hero" type, my friend gives him
all the money in the register. He was then forced into the back room of
the store where the a**hole killed him with a single shot to the back
of the head.
The cops caught the a**hole within a couple of days and he confessed.
When asked
why he murdered the guy, he responded "Uh, I dunno, I just felt like
shootin' him".
This, BTW, is not a violent town. We have had 3 murders in 30 years,
here, including
my friend.
I refuse to EVER be in a position where someone will get me to comply
with their whim of "Uh, I dunno, I just felt like shootin' him". I will
shoot anyone who wants to stick a gun in my face, I will shoot until
they are no longer a threat, and I will feel no moral, religious, or
personal guilt about doing so.

But to me, going to sleep with a loaded gun under your pillow seems
extreme, and quite possibly more dangerous than beneficial...

I have never known anyone who was stupid enough to sleep with a loaded
gun under their pillow!