Turn coordinator? How dare they!

On Tuesday, February 26, 2013 7:55:05 AM UTC-7, son_of_flubber wrote:
On Tuesday, February 26, 2013 1:11:34 AM UTC-5, Alan wrote:



I would agree and disagree with Dan about this. Obvious reasons

include expense (gyros are expensive), weight, and power.



Here is a relatively inexpensive, low-maintenance, non-gyro based, and low power consuming Turn and Bank Indicator (that claims to be much easier to use than the old style).



http://www.trutrakflightsystems.com/..._and_Bank.html

I haven't used the Tru-Track but I have a lot of "hood time" with old fashioned partial-panel "needle-ball-airspeed-clock-compass" flying including unusual attitude recovery. Using a T&B and ASI to maintain aircraft control is a difficult skill to acquire and just as difficult to maintain. That said, given that a pilot is highly trained and very current, it does work.

However, there is a difference between airplanes and gliders WRT the T&B. An airplane T&B displays a "standard rate turn" (2 minutes per 360 turn) as two needle widths. (Needle on the "doghouse" for the old guys.) That's 6 times too sensitive for a glider where the typical turn rate is 20 seconds per turn. Turns to a heading are much easier with an airplanes slow turn rate.

Another special problem for glider pilots is we learn and practice a sort of "seat-of-the-pants" flying. However, instrument flying is the polar opposite where one must completely ignore all kinetic and vestibular "feelings" and totally commit to believing the instruments even when every fiber in your your body is screaming the instruments are wrong - and your body WILL scream at you. Saying the "mind plays tricks" is a huge understatement.

Real single-pilot, partial-panel instrument flying is a deadly serious business not to be undertaken lightly. That's why pilots without the training and currency will almost always lose control of the aircraft as soon as visual references are lost.

What concerns me most about this thread is the emphasis on instruments themselves and not the training required to use them. Training is the key.

"Bill D" wrote in message
...
On Monday, February 25, 2013 5:04:31 PM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:

Way back when, I tried the "benign spiral" in my LS-6a. I found it to be

dynamically unstable in pitch and, after a few cycles without touching
the

stick, it was ready to loop or break Vne.

Did you use full dive brakes?

To tell the truth, I don't recall - probably not. I think I used the
published (in Soaring) procedure but I don't remember if it called for full
dive brakes.

Gyros are not disallowed except in competition (in the USA, at least). I
have a functional J-8 attitude indicator in my hangar but it's too heavy and
power hungry to install in my panel. Not to mention that I've already
stated my firm intention to stay out of clouds.

I'd be a lot happier with the attitude indicator than I am with the TruTrak.
I'm not at all impressed with it.


"Alan" wrote in message
...
In article
son_of_flubber writes:
"son_of_flubber" wrote in message
snip ...Why not equip gliders (with a turn and bank indicator) and
pilots
(with training) to safely handle a few minutes of cloud flying if it
is a
non-zero possibility

On Monday, February 25, 2013 10:50:52 AM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
That's a pretty naive question.

Pretty much ALL of my questions are naive due to my lack of much
experience and training. It's good for me to reminded of that from time
to time. Thanks for your answer.


I would agree and disagree with Dan about this. Obvious reasons
include expense (gyros are expensive), weight, and power.

The training would probably be a big deal as well -- the single
engine private pilot requirement is for 3 hours of flight training
in manuvering solely by reference to instruments. Even so, the
record of accidents after non-instrument rated pilots wander into
weather is not good.

I think that few would want to mandate these instruments be in
gliders.

On the other hand, I have read postings describing sudden rain
encounters that forced a pilot to suddenly and unexpectedly have
to fly by instrument reference, in conditions where visibility
had been substantial (perhaps 15 miles) a few instants before.
I can see where a running gyro instrument in the panel could be
a useful safety instrument for the glider pilot who was also an
instrument competent airplane pilot.

I would not want to see such be required, but it pains me to
see situations where such capability would be disallowed.

Alan

That's what's in my panel. Anybody want to give me $400 for it? It's been
in the panel for less than a year and has less than 30 minutes power up
time. Comes with harness, on-off switch, and connector.


"son_of_flubber" wrote in message
...
On Tuesday, February 26, 2013 1:11:34 AM UTC-5, Alan wrote:

I would agree and disagree with Dan about this. Obvious reasons
include expense (gyros are expensive), weight, and power.

Here is a relatively inexpensive, low-maintenance, non-gyro based, and low
power consuming Turn and Bank Indicator (that claims to be much easier to
use than the old style).

http://www.trutrakflightsystems.com/..._and_Bank.html

Good description. Well said!


"Bill D" wrote in message
...
On Tuesday, February 26, 2013 7:55:05 AM UTC-7, son_of_flubber wrote:
On Tuesday, February 26, 2013 1:11:34 AM UTC-5, Alan wrote:



I would agree and disagree with Dan about this. Obvious reasons

include expense (gyros are expensive), weight, and power.



Here is a relatively inexpensive, low-maintenance, non-gyro based, and low
power consuming Turn and Bank Indicator (that claims to be much easier to
use than the old style).



http://www.trutrakflightsystems.com/..._and_Bank.html

I haven't used the Tru-Track but I have a lot of "hood time" with old
fashioned partial-panel "needle-ball-airspeed-clock-compass" flying
including unusual attitude recovery. Using a T&B and ASI to maintain
aircraft control is a difficult skill to acquire and just as difficult to
maintain. That said, given that a pilot is highly trained and very
current, it does work.

However, there is a difference between airplanes and gliders WRT the T&B.
An airplane T&B displays a "standard rate turn" (2 minutes per 360 turn) as
two needle widths. (Needle on the "doghouse" for the old guys.) That's 6
times too sensitive for a glider where the typical turn rate is 20 seconds
per turn. Turns to a heading are much easier with an airplanes slow turn
rate.

Another special problem for glider pilots is we learn and practice a sort of
"seat-of-the-pants" flying. However, instrument flying is the polar
opposite where one must completely ignore all kinetic and vestibular
"feelings" and totally commit to believing the instruments even when every
fiber in your your body is screaming the instruments are wrong - and your
body WILL scream at you. Saying the "mind plays tricks" is a huge
understatement.

Real single-pilot, partial-panel instrument flying is a deadly serious
business not to be undertaken lightly. That's why pilots without the
training and currency will almost always lose control of the aircraft as
soon as visual references are lost.

What concerns me most about this thread is the emphasis on instruments
themselves and not the training required to use them. Training is the key.

On Tuesday, February 26, 2013 9:47:24 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
"Bill D" wrote in message

...

On Monday, February 25, 2013 5:04:31 PM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:



Way back when, I tried the "benign spiral" in my LS-6a. I found it to be



dynamically unstable in pitch and, after a few cycles without touching

the



stick, it was ready to loop or break Vne.



Did you use full dive brakes?



To tell the truth, I don't recall - probably not. I think I used the

published (in Soaring) procedure but I don't remember if it called for full

dive brakes.

My understanding of the "benign spiral" is the air brakes MUST be open to stabilize the glider and prevent over speed.

On Tuesday, February 26, 2013 12:14:15 PM UTC-5, Bill D wrote:

My understanding of the "benign spiral" is the air brakes MUST be open to stabilize the glider and prevent over speed.

Generally, you want to make the glider as dirty as possible (gear, flaps, spoilers). The point is a descent, after all. Trim probably full aft. A little top rudder can be used to "tune" the turn rate and speed. I've convinced myself of two things w.r.t. the benign spiral in my ship: 1) it will probably work in reasonably smooth air as long as I don't pick up a load of ice, although it's going to get *really* disconcerting when the asi fails due to plugged pitot or static 2) I absolutely do not ever want to be in the position of having to do this for-real through a cloud deck, especially in NH in October (again, ice).

Evan Ludeman / T8

* I would agree and disagree with Dan about this. *Obvious reasons
include expense (gyros are expensive), weight, and power.

Just so incorrect information does not get propagated I have to
correct this statement.
Gyros are no longer expensive (now less than $10), heavy ( 1 oz.) or
power hungry.
Solid state gyros are now found in most "smart" phones and many other
places.
The old mechanical gyros are dead in the water (except for some very
specialized applications.)

"Dan Marotta" wrote:
Gyros are not disallowed except in competition (in the USA, at least). I
have a functional J-8 attitude indicator in my hangar but it's too heavy
and power hungry to install in my panel. Not to mention that I've
already stated my firm intention to stay out of clouds.

I'd be a lot happier with the attitude indicator than I am with the
TruTrak. I'm not at all impressed with it.


"Alan" wrote in message ...
In article
son_of_flubber writes:
"son_of_flubber" wrote in message
snip ...Why not equip gliders (with a turn and bank indicator) and pilots
(with training) to safely handle a few minutes of cloud flying if it is a
non-zero possibility

On Monday, February 25, 2013 10:50:52 AM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
That's a pretty naive question.

Pretty much ALL of my questions are naive due to my lack of much
experience and training. It's good for me to reminded of that from
time to time. Thanks for your answer.


I would agree and disagree with Dan about this. Obvious reasons
include expense (gyros are expensive), weight, and power.

The training would probably be a big deal as well -- the single
engine private pilot requirement is for 3 hours of flight training
in manuvering solely by reference to instruments. Even so, the
record of accidents after non-instrument rated pilots wander into
weather is not good.

I think that few would want to mandate these instruments be in
gliders.

On the other hand, I have read postings describing sudden rain
encounters that forced a pilot to suddenly and unexpectedly have
to fly by instrument reference, in conditions where visibility
had been substantial (perhaps 15 miles) a few instants before.
I can see where a running gyro instrument in the panel could be
a useful safety instrument for the glider pilot who was also an
instrument competent airplane pilot.

I would not want to see such be required, but it pains me to
see situations where such capability would be disallowed.

Alan

Dan just out of curiosity, what about the trutrack don't you like???

Pete

On Sunday, February 24, 2013 4:42:29 PM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:

It seems a little out of touch with reality that gliders frequently put themselves in the position where they might need to descend through clouds and yet they typically do not have the training or carry the instruments to handle that situation. Is this because the FAR were written before it was common for gliders to fly in wave? If we brought this anomaly to the attention of the FAA, are we afraid that they will outlaw wave flying?

Nope. In over 25 years of East Coast soaring, I've averaged 2-3 trips into the wave each year. Some more, some less. So, figure 50-75 excursions up above 10K. In all those flights, I've never been trapped on top - not even close. As others have mentioned, part of the training is to recognize when this is happening. If you insist on climbing up through a tiny hole or staying up when the cloud deck is rapidly forming, then I guess it could happen. But, I'm not aware of a single person in our club (at one of the 3-4 most active wave sites in the east) where this has been an issue in the 20 years I've been a member. At least nobody has admitted it.

P3