skyrides are at it again?

On Aug 23, 2:39*pm, T wrote:
On Aug 23, 9:11*am, Frank Whiteley wrote:





On Aug 23, 8:59*am, Grider Pirate wrote:

On Aug 22, 11:10*pm, Clyde Rasmusen

wrote:
It is just as sleazy some places on the other side.

One example, the southern NV soaring club uses the legal dba and trademark
of the local FBO to solicit for profit glider rides.

See:http://www.m.superpages.com/mobile/y...lid=0113644510

No accident the web link leads you to:www.lvvsa.organdtheirphone
number.

According to the local flying attourneys, this club is listed with
the Internal Revenue Service and Clark County as a non-profit organization.

Also advertises in the local yellow business pages and not for FAST rides
although an SSA afiliated club.

Just how many millions of dollars did Skydive Arizona win from Skyride for
misrepresentation, fraud, defamation, trademark infringement and lost
revenues?

See:http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/safe...age.cgi?ID=606

So who pays the fines, legal fees and verifiable loss of income when the
glider club gets caught? Unaware club members with their dues and assets or
the bond and note holders.

Word of caution. Dangerous waters, glider clubs.

CLYDE R.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

At 23:15 22 August 2011, JayM wrote:

On Aug 22, 1:06=A0pm, Rex Mayes *wrote:
It seems that the company SkyRides has now formed a new company called
Soaring Sports and has become an SSA business member to hyjack the
F.A.S.T program in order to sell rides.

Some operators will not do business with Sky Rides by honoring the
certificates it sells. =A0Sky Rides has contacted the SSA to sell the
F.A.S.T. program to unknowing customers. =A0These customers call a
gliderport to redeem the F.A.S.T certificate and the operator has no
idea that it was not sold by the SSA but rather, by the Sky Rides
company.

Can any of the operators confirm this?

I talked with Mr Barber today also and it seemed like a good idea at
the time.
But if they are really a re-wrapped Scam outfit we need to nip it
soon.
I wonder how much more than the usual $99 they will charge in order to
make a profit?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Excuse me?? *I've been a member of the LVVSA for 10 years now. LVVSA
does not, never has, and never will give glider rides for profit. * We
participate in the FAST program. *When people call looking to 'take a
ride' in a glider, we refer them to the local commercial operator. I
personally give about a dozen rides a year - splitting the cost of the
tow and glider with the rider, or in many cases simply paying for the
entire ride myself.

I think Clyde is referring tohttp://www.soaringcenter.net/
being the 'real' Las Vegas Glider Rides and somehow the Superpages
listing is an attempt to 'hijack' this. *However, my business is
listed in Superpages (among 28 others, some of which have no actual
presence or capability here). *So using that as some kind of proof is
bogus. *No idea what the local

Perhaps that's the commercial operator you mention.

I searched for Las Vegas Glider Rides on dexknows.com for Las Vegas
and found nothing. *It did appear for Jean, NV and was the club's
phone and address. *Did the same for Yellowpages.com for Las Vegas and
it linked to the club. *However the website description talked about

Frank Whiteley- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The number I found looking up LAS VEGAS GLIDER RIDES in DEX is
actually the company number, not the club number.
Searching LAS VEGAS GLIDER RIDES in YELLOWBOOK does list the club and
the club phone number. We have no control over how Yellow Book runs
their search engine.

Bill Tisdale- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Interesting.. I had a longer post before this one.. and it has not
shown up yet.. Thank you GOOGLE GROUPS.
It needs to be read.

And CLYDE has no idea about what he's talking about.. I see he has
only two posts all year to this group.. unless Google Groups and
screwed that up too.
Bill

Originally Posted by Rex Mayes

It seems that the company SkyRides has now formed a new company called
Soaring Sports and has become an SSA business member to hyjack the
F.A.S.T program in order to sell rides.

Some operators will not do business with Sky Rides by honoring the
certificates it sells. Sky Rides has contacted the SSA to sell the
F.A.S.T. program to unknowing customers. These customers call a
gliderport to redeem the F.A.S.T certificate and the operator has no
idea that it was not sold by the SSA but rather, by the Sky Rides
company.

Can any of the operators confirm this?

come to http://www.jammerall.com. it will surprise you, i have benefit it a lot, jamming you and me.

Well those Skyride scumbags are likely reading this thread. One little mention here and that stolen photo of a BASA Pegasus in the top left hand corner has turned into a...LS? http://www.1800skyride.com/sports/ad...ides/index.php

Now for all the other stolen images they use...


Darryl

On Aug 23, 2:50*pm, Drew Pearce wrote:
Currently many commercial glider operations do not want to
work with some ticket agencies reselling their tickets because
they cannibalize business from customers already searching for
them online. They have professional *sales people, slick yet
vague websites, the advertising budget to get top search engine
placement and can often sell for less than a commercial glider
operator because they make a good profit off of unredeemed
gift certificates.

If commercial glider operators do not want to work with them
now, then I would expect they will just quit the FAST program if
it means they would have to accept gift certificates sold by a
third party ticket agency. So then it is conceivable that
commercial operations would see a loss of business and
participating clubs would be over burdened with rides. If people
are buying a gift for a glider ride, is it then legal or ethical to
send the gift recipient to a non-profit club when the customer felt
they were dealing with a commercial business? Does the fact
that a ticket agency make a profit on the ride cause a problem
for the non-profit club status?

The way the SAA FAST program works now, the majority of
people being sent to a flight school would not have otherwise
found them and so are most likely helping increase their
business. However, if most of the people sent to them through
the FAST program are really just looking for a ride and typically
would have bought directly from the operator, then the FAST
program no longer makes since to operators. A commercial
operation typically takes a loss when honoring a FAST
certificate.

Caution should be used before trying to remove any SSA
business member since this may cause some legal problems for
the SSA. New rules could be created for the FAST program to
close any loopholes which could cause the program to collapse.
Maybe only allow participating flight schools who actually honor
the FAST certificates be allowed to resale the FAST certificates.
You may also want to limit the number a FAST certificates each
one can resale (since one could buy or lease a glider and
towplane to operate just 1 day a year) plus require that sales
methods for FAST certificates need to be directed primarily
towards customers planning to use them at their own location.
This needs more thought before setting the rules but this gives
an idea of how to close the loopholes without causing legal
problems. The US parachute association supposedly had a bad
experience trying to kick out a business member once for
similar reasons and were not successful in removing them I
heard.

A flight school who works with a third party ticket agency can
still offer the FAST program to those students that schedule with
them through the third party ticket agency and who really want
a lesson. The flight school can purchase the book packets
directly from the SSA for $50, give them to any students coming
in for an intro lesson and then get their $50 back when the SSA
receives the membership certificate. This is what the Hollister
Soaring Center does with every new student. The SSA gets a
new member and the student gets essentially free books plus a
membership. There is no need or advantage for the SSA to work
with any third party ticket agency that I can see.

I would like to add a bit of information to this thread.

1800skyrides is a brand and was acquired by Headband LLC in October
2010. The former company was IGO Vincent LLC. When consulted, I
advised them of the considerable ill will the brand carried in the US
soaring community. Part of their marketing plan is to use localized
domains and targeted search placement. I advised them to have an
agreement or relationship to market to specific operations. If an
operation opts out, then don't refer customers to them, but don't
offer up a specific operation until said agreement exists.

FAST packages are flight lessons, intended to grow soaring, not thrill
rides. However, soaring is thrilling, adventurous, exciting, and
invitations to become involved long term should include this
emphasis. It is an aero sport with awards, benchmarks, records, and
competition. Individual participation in those aspects varies and the
promotion or stifling of those aspects by soaring organizations also
varies. FAST packages should be part of the invitation to become
involved.

Should Headband LLC dba Soaring Sports be able to sell FAST packages
and refer to agreeable organizations? An SSA member and help recently
sold FAST packages as a soaring promotion at Oshkosh, armed with a
list of SSA clubs and business members that participated in redeeming
packages. So some will be contacted out of the blue that they got it
while at Oshkosh.

Soaring Adventures of America, www.800soaring.com, is a long time SSA
business member. They are not selling FAST packages, but glider
rides. If you check the locations, California and Colorado (both high
activity soaring states), are distinctly missing. I suspect this is
probably part of the halo effect of the regionalized efforts against
the previously bad actions of IGO Vincent.

The questions are whether the price a third party will charge for
their marketing services is justified, that what they are marketing is
honestly described, and whether we allow them to use our 'product'.
If we do allow it, then we have something to say about the honesty.
Soaring Sports has been doing what they were asked to do, but they
were warned that 800skyride.com carried baggage. Now if a soaring
organization also offers glider rides, that can also be an offering,
again with an established agreement/relationship, with or without SSA
business membership, FAST packages, or whatever. It would be dumb to
offer anything without a redemption agreement.

I think we all agree that soaring needs promotion.

Frank Whiteley

On Aug 24, 8:01*am, Frank Whiteley wrote:
On Aug 23, 2:50*pm, Drew Pearce wrote:









Currently many commercial glider operations do not want to
work with some ticket agencies reselling their tickets because
they cannibalize business from customers already searching for
them online. They have professional *sales people, slick yet
vague websites, the advertising budget to get top search engine
placement and can often sell for less than a commercial glider
operator because they make a good profit off of unredeemed
gift certificates.

If commercial glider operators do not want to work with them
now, then I would expect they will just quit the FAST program if
it means they would have to accept gift certificates sold by a
third party ticket agency. So then it is conceivable that
commercial operations would see a loss of business and
participating clubs would be over burdened with rides. If people
are buying a gift for a glider ride, is it then legal or ethical to
send the gift recipient to a non-profit club when the customer felt
they were dealing with a commercial business? Does the fact
that a ticket agency make a profit on the ride cause a problem
for the non-profit club status?

The way the SAA FAST program works now, the majority of
people being sent to a flight school would not have otherwise
found them and so are most likely helping increase their
business. However, if most of the people sent to them through
the FAST program are really just looking for a ride and typically
would have bought directly from the operator, then the FAST
program no longer makes since to operators. A commercial
operation typically takes a loss when honoring a FAST
certificate.

Caution should be used before trying to remove any SSA
business member since this may cause some legal problems for
the SSA. New rules could be created for the FAST program to
close any loopholes which could cause the program to collapse.
Maybe only allow participating flight schools who actually honor
the FAST certificates be allowed to resale the FAST certificates.
You may also want to limit the number a FAST certificates each
one can resale (since one could buy or lease a glider and
towplane to operate just 1 day a year) plus require that sales
methods for FAST certificates need to be directed primarily
towards customers planning to use them at their own location.
This needs more thought before setting the rules but this gives
an idea of how to close the loopholes without causing legal
problems. The US parachute association supposedly had a bad
experience trying to kick out a business member once for
similar reasons and were not successful in removing them I
heard.

A flight school who works with a third party ticket agency can
still offer the FAST program to those students that schedule with
them through the third party ticket agency and who really want
a lesson. The flight school can purchase the book packets
directly from the SSA for $50, give them to any students coming
in for an intro lesson and then get their $50 back when the SSA
receives the membership certificate. This is what the Hollister
Soaring Center does with every new student. The SSA gets a
new member and the student gets essentially free books plus a
membership. There is no need or advantage for the SSA to work
with any third party ticket agency that I can see.

I would like to add a bit of information to this thread.

1800skyrides is a brand and was acquired by Headband LLC in October
2010. *The former company was IGO Vincent LLC. *When consulted, I
advised them of the considerable ill will the brand carried in the US
soaring community. Part of their marketing plan is to use localized
domains and targeted search placement. *I advised them to have an
agreement or relationship to market to specific operations. *If an
operation opts out, then don't refer customers to them, but don't
offer up a specific operation until said agreement exists.

FAST packages are flight lessons, intended to grow soaring, not thrill
rides. *However, soaring is thrilling, adventurous, exciting, and
invitations to become involved long term should include this
emphasis. *It is an aero sport with awards, benchmarks, records, and
competition. *Individual participation in those aspects varies and the
promotion or stifling of those aspects by soaring organizations also
varies. *FAST packages should be part of the invitation to become
involved.

Should Headband LLC dba Soaring Sports be able to sell FAST packages
and refer to agreeable organizations? *An SSA member and help recently
sold FAST packages as a soaring promotion at Oshkosh, armed with a
list of SSA clubs and business members that participated in redeeming
packages. *So some will be contacted out of the blue that they got it
while at Oshkosh.

Soaring Adventures of America,www.800soaring.com, is a long time SSA
business member. *They are not selling FAST packages, but glider
rides. *If you check the locations, California and Colorado (both high
activity soaring states), are distinctly missing. *I suspect this is
probably part of the halo effect of the regionalized efforts against
the previously bad actions of IGO Vincent.

The questions are whether the price a third party will charge for
their marketing services is justified, that what they are marketing is
honestly described, and whether we allow them to use our 'product'.
If we do allow it, then we have something to say about the honesty.
Soaring Sports has been doing what they were asked to do, but they
were warned that 800skyride.com carried baggage. *Now if a soaring
organization also offers glider rides, that can also be an offering,
again with an established agreement/relationship, with or without SSA
business membership, FAST packages, or whatever. *It would be dumb to
offer anything without a redemption agreement.

I think we all agree that soaring needs promotion.

Frank Whiteley

Soaring does need promotion.

The FAST program is an excellent way to do that. However, at $99
there is precious little profit opportunity for anyone. It usually
works out as a shared loss between the club/operator and the SSA to
promote soaring which it is hoped benefits both in the long run.

There's no way for a middleman/marketer/distributor to profit unless
games are played with the money. This is mainly betting on a low
redemption ratio but can also be a strong arm after-the-fact
negotiation with the the service provider to accept less money. None
of these tactics reflect well on the SSA.

Saying that "800 Skyride/Soaring Sports" has some "baggage" is putting
it most kindly. Dealing with an eager prospect who has paid an
exorbitant price on the internet for a voucher you can't redeem (BTDT)
doesn't lead to "baggage" it leads to a PR nightmare for soaring in
general.

I've seen the 3rd party marketeers try their game in several
businesses and it invariably fails miserably even if high margins are
possible since it forces large increases in the retail price cutting
demand.

Soaring does need and warrant the right kind of promotion. The
promotion should be done by the SSA, clubs and commercial operators
who actually provide the services.
Third party promoters rely on selling certificates and vouchers that
will never be used. This is not good for the sport. None of that
money is invested in soaring equipment, and infrastructure for
creating jobs for aspiring professional pilots.

A big issue with third party marketers is that they are not
interested in giving the customer the important information regarding
scheduling, weight and size limitations or hours of operation, just to
name a few. They sell the ride with a bunch of hype and the operator
is left with a disappointed (at best) customer for whom he will not be
paid enough to do the ride anyway.

I love America. We enjoy so many civil liberties and freedoms. This
is one of a few countries that people like me can enjoy making a
living with a great sport like soaring. With these liberties come
SCUM BAGS that just want to skim off the top. We see it in third party
marketing as well as internet based supply busnesses who do not have
any real skin in the game with tow or training operations.

We do not need government regulation to thwart this activity. We need
operators and glider pilots to evaluate where the value is. Is there
value in the quick sale that someone else goes out and gets? Is there
value in buying equipment from someone who is not otherwise keeping
the sport alive by providing your tows, training for new students,
advanced training for aspiring soaring pilots and recurrency training
for the rest, or providing repairs, inspections and instalation of the
equipment purchased?

My point is that we as a whole community allow for this kind of
activity and we can control it. The SSA can help with educating
operators and pilots about marketing and purchasing. People need to
know that where all the money goes, MATTERS!

Consider it.

Rex

On Aug 24, 7:47*am, Bill D wrote:
On Aug 24, 8:01*am, Frank Whiteley wrote:





On Aug 23, 2:50*pm, Drew Pearce wrote:

Currently many commercial glider operations do not want to
work with some ticket agencies reselling their tickets because
they cannibalize business from customers already searching for
them online. They have professional *sales people, slick yet
vague websites, the advertising budget to get top search engine
placement and can often sell for less than a commercial glider
operator because they make a good profit off of unredeemed
gift certificates.

If commercial glider operators do not want to work with them
now, then I would expect they will just quit the FAST program if
it means they would have to accept gift certificates sold by a
third party ticket agency. So then it is conceivable that
commercial operations would see a loss of business and
participating clubs would be over burdened with rides. If people
are buying a gift for a glider ride, is it then legal or ethical to
send the gift recipient to a non-profit club when the customer felt
they were dealing with a commercial business? Does the fact
that a ticket agency make a profit on the ride cause a problem
for the non-profit club status?

The way the SAA FAST program works now, the majority of
people being sent to a flight school would not have otherwise
found them and so are most likely helping increase their
business. However, if most of the people sent to them through
the FAST program are really just looking for a ride and typically
would have bought directly from the operator, then the FAST
program no longer makes since to operators. A commercial
operation typically takes a loss when honoring a FAST
certificate.

Caution should be used before trying to remove any SSA
business member since this may cause some legal problems for
the SSA. New rules could be created for the FAST program to
close any loopholes which could cause the program to collapse.
Maybe only allow participating flight schools who actually honor
the FAST certificates be allowed to resale the FAST certificates.
You may also want to limit the number a FAST certificates each
one can resale (since one could buy or lease a glider and
towplane to operate just 1 day a year) plus require that sales
methods for FAST certificates need to be directed primarily
towards customers planning to use them at their own location.
This needs more thought before setting the rules but this gives
an idea of how to close the loopholes without causing legal
problems. The US parachute association supposedly had a bad
experience trying to kick out a business member once for
similar reasons and were not successful in removing them I
heard.

A flight school who works with a third party ticket agency can
still offer the FAST program to those students that schedule with
them through the third party ticket agency and who really want
a lesson. The flight school can purchase the book packets
directly from the SSA for $50, give them to any students coming
in for an intro lesson and then get their $50 back when the SSA
receives the membership certificate. This is what the Hollister
Soaring Center does with every new student. The SSA gets a
new member and the student gets essentially free books plus a
membership. There is no need or advantage for the SSA to work
with any third party ticket agency that I can see.

I would like to add a bit of information to this thread.

1800skyrides is a brand and was acquired by Headband LLC in October
2010. *The former company was IGO Vincent LLC. *When consulted, I
advised them of the considerable ill will the brand carried in the US
soaring community. Part of their marketing plan is to use localized
domains and targeted search placement. *I advised them to have an
agreement or relationship to market to specific operations. *If an
operation opts out, then don't refer customers to them, but don't
offer up a specific operation until said agreement exists.

FAST packages are flight lessons, intended to grow soaring, not thrill
rides. *However, soaring is thrilling, adventurous, exciting, and
invitations to become involved long term should include this
emphasis. *It is an aero sport with awards, benchmarks, records, and
competition. *Individual participation in those aspects varies and the
promotion or stifling of those aspects by soaring organizations also
varies. *FAST packages should be part of the invitation to become
involved.

Should Headband LLC dba Soaring Sports be able to sell FAST packages
and refer to agreeable organizations? *An SSA member and help recently
sold FAST packages as a soaring promotion at Oshkosh, armed with a
list of SSA clubs and business members that participated in redeeming
packages. *So some will be contacted out of the blue that they got it
while at Oshkosh.

Soaring Adventures of America,www.800soaring.com, is a long time SSA
business member. *They are not selling FAST packages, but glider
rides. *If you check the locations, California and Colorado (both high
activity soaring states), are distinctly missing. *I suspect this is
probably part of the halo effect of the regionalized efforts against
the previously bad actions of IGO Vincent.

The questions are whether the price a third party will charge for
their marketing services is justified, that what they are marketing is
honestly described, and whether we allow them to use our 'product'.
If we do allow it, then we have something to say about the honesty.
Soaring Sports has been doing what they were asked to do, but they
were warned that 800skyride.com carried baggage. *Now if a soaring
organization also offers glider rides, that can also be an offering,
again with an established agreement/relationship, with or without SSA
business membership, FAST packages, or whatever. *It would be dumb to
offer anything without a redemption agreement.

I think we all agree that soaring needs promotion.

Frank Whiteley

Soaring does need promotion.

The FAST program is an excellent way to do that. *However, at $99
there is precious little profit opportunity for anyone. *It usually
works out as a shared loss between the club/operator and the SSA to
promote soaring which it is hoped benefits both in the long run.

There's no way for a middleman/marketer/distributor to profit unless
games are played with the money. *This is mainly betting on a low
redemption ratio but can also be a strong arm after-the-fact
negotiation with the the service provider to accept less money. *None
of these tactics reflect well on the SSA.

Saying that "800 Skyride/Soaring Sports" has some "baggage" is putting
it most kindly. *Dealing with an eager prospect who has paid an
exorbitant price on the internet for a voucher you can't redeem (BTDT)
doesn't lead to "baggage" it leads to a PR nightmare for soaring in
general.

I've seen the 3rd party marketeers try their game in several
businesses and it invariably fails miserably even if high margins are
possible since it forces large increases in the retail price cutting
demand.

We need more information from SSA HQ on this "deal" with Soaring
Sports.
We are a club, we do not advertise except through the SSA Where to Fly
web pages.
We are limited in how many students we can handle at a given time
because we only fly weekends, one primary 2-33 trainer and one tow
plane. There are times when we have a waiting list for new students
wanting to learn to fly.
We accept the SSA FAST certificates and keep a very small quantity
available to offer new students.
It is interesting that the call from soaring sports asking if we
accepted the SSA FAST certificate told us that we would have to redeem
"their" certificate with them for $50 and SSA for another $50. So we
would have to redeem it twice?

We are Las Vegas Valley Soaring Assoc, LVVSA, 702.470.1420, at Jean NV
for over 20 years, a club not offering "rides for hire to the general
public. We have been visited my many SSA members from other clubs
around the country.

The commercial operator at Jean is Las Vegas Glider Rides or Las Vegas
Soaring Center, operated by John Michael Henderson, 702.470.1010. Mr.
Henderson's companies are not listed on the SSA site as a Business
Partner. We do refer those one time riders not interested in lessons
to Mr Henderson.

There's no way for a middleman/marketer/distributor to profit unless
games are played with the money. This is mainly betting on a low
redemption ratio.......

Bingo! I used to fly rides at a commercial operation (Salem NH). They
loved selling gift certificates as 40% were never redeemed. It was like
printing money.

Tony V. "6N"

On Aug 24, 2:02*pm, T wrote:
On Aug 24, 7:47*am, Bill D wrote:









On Aug 24, 8:01*am, Frank Whiteley wrote:

On Aug 23, 2:50*pm, Drew Pearce wrote:

Currently many commercial glider operations do not want to
work with some ticket agencies reselling their tickets because
they cannibalize business from customers already searching for
them online. They have professional *sales people, slick yet
vague websites, the advertising budget to get top search engine
placement and can often sell for less than a commercial glider
operator because they make a good profit off of unredeemed
gift certificates.

If commercial glider operators do not want to work with them
now, then I would expect they will just quit the FAST program if
it means they would have to accept gift certificates sold by a
third party ticket agency. So then it is conceivable that
commercial operations would see a loss of business and
participating clubs would be over burdened with rides. If people
are buying a gift for a glider ride, is it then legal or ethical to
send the gift recipient to a non-profit club when the customer felt
they were dealing with a commercial business? Does the fact
that a ticket agency make a profit on the ride cause a problem
for the non-profit club status?

The way the SAA FAST program works now, the majority of
people being sent to a flight school would not have otherwise
found them and so are most likely helping increase their
business. However, if most of the people sent to them through
the FAST program are really just looking for a ride and typically
would have bought directly from the operator, then the FAST
program no longer makes since to operators. A commercial
operation typically takes a loss when honoring a FAST
certificate.

Caution should be used before trying to remove any SSA
business member since this may cause some legal problems for
the SSA. New rules could be created for the FAST program to
close any loopholes which could cause the program to collapse.
Maybe only allow participating flight schools who actually honor
the FAST certificates be allowed to resale the FAST certificates.
You may also want to limit the number a FAST certificates each
one can resale (since one could buy or lease a glider and
towplane to operate just 1 day a year) plus require that sales
methods for FAST certificates need to be directed primarily
towards customers planning to use them at their own location.
This needs more thought before setting the rules but this gives
an idea of how to close the loopholes without causing legal
problems. The US parachute association supposedly had a bad
experience trying to kick out a business member once for
similar reasons and were not successful in removing them I
heard.

A flight school who works with a third party ticket agency can
still offer the FAST program to those students that schedule with
them through the third party ticket agency and who really want
a lesson. The flight school can purchase the book packets
directly from the SSA for $50, give them to any students coming
in for an intro lesson and then get their $50 back when the SSA
receives the membership certificate. This is what the Hollister
Soaring Center does with every new student. The SSA gets a
new member and the student gets essentially free books plus a
membership. There is no need or advantage for the SSA to work
with any third party ticket agency that I can see.

I would like to add a bit of information to this thread.

1800skyrides is a brand and was acquired by Headband LLC in October
2010. *The former company was IGO Vincent LLC. *When consulted, I
advised them of the considerable ill will the brand carried in the US
soaring community. Part of their marketing plan is to use localized
domains and targeted search placement. *I advised them to have an
agreement or relationship to market to specific operations. *If an
operation opts out, then don't refer customers to them, but don't
offer up a specific operation until said agreement exists.

FAST packages are flight lessons, intended to grow soaring, not thrill
rides. *However, soaring is thrilling, adventurous, exciting, and
invitations to become involved long term should include this
emphasis. *It is an aero sport with awards, benchmarks, records, and
competition. *Individual participation in those aspects varies and the
promotion or stifling of those aspects by soaring organizations also
varies. *FAST packages should be part of the invitation to become
involved.

Should Headband LLC dba Soaring Sports be able to sell FAST packages
and refer to agreeable organizations? *An SSA member and help recently
sold FAST packages as a soaring promotion at Oshkosh, armed with a
list of SSA clubs and business members that participated in redeeming
packages. *So some will be contacted out of the blue that they got it
while at Oshkosh.

Soaring Adventures of America,www.800soaring.com, is a long time SSA
business member. *They are not selling FAST packages, but glider
rides. *If you check the locations, California and Colorado (both high
activity soaring states), are distinctly missing. *I suspect this is
probably part of the halo effect of the regionalized efforts against
the previously bad actions of IGO Vincent.

The questions are whether the price a third party will charge for
their marketing services is justified, that what they are marketing is
honestly described, and whether we allow them to use our 'product'.
If we do allow it, then we have something to say about the honesty.
Soaring Sports has been doing what they were asked to do, but they
were warned that 800skyride.com carried baggage. *Now if a soaring
organization also offers glider rides, that can also be an offering,
again with an established agreement/relationship, with or without SSA
business membership, FAST packages, or whatever. *It would be dumb to
offer anything without a redemption agreement.

I think we all agree that soaring needs promotion.

Frank Whiteley

Soaring does need promotion.

The FAST program is an excellent way to do that. *However, at $99
there is precious little profit opportunity for anyone. *It usually
works out as a shared loss between the club/operator and the SSA to
promote soaring which it is hoped benefits both in the long run.

There's no way for a middleman/marketer/distributor to profit unless
games are played with the money. *This is mainly betting on a low
redemption ratio but can also be a strong arm after-the-fact
negotiation with the the service provider to accept less money. *None
of these tactics reflect well on the SSA.

Saying that "800 Skyride/Soaring Sports" has some "baggage" is putting
it most kindly. *Dealing with an eager prospect who has paid an
exorbitant price on the internet for a voucher you can't redeem (BTDT)
doesn't lead to "baggage" it leads to a PR nightmare for soaring in
general.

I've seen the 3rd party marketeers try their game in several
businesses and it invariably fails miserably even if high margins are
possible since it forces large increases in the retail price cutting
demand.

We need more information from SSA HQ on this "deal" with Soaring
Sports.
We are a club, we do not advertise except through the SSA Where to Fly
web pages.
We are limited in how many students we can handle at a given time
because we only fly weekends, one primary 2-33 trainer and one tow
plane. There are times when we have a waiting list for new students
wanting to learn to fly.
We accept the SSA FAST certificates and keep a very small quantity
available to offer new students.
It is interesting that the call from soaring sports asking if we
accepted the SSA FAST certificate told us that we would have to redeem
"their" certificate with them for $50 and SSA for another $50. So we
would have to redeem it twice?

We are Las Vegas Valley Soaring Assoc, LVVSA, 702.470.1420, at Jean NV
for over 20 years, a club not offering "rides for hire to the general
public. We have been visited my many SSA members from other clubs
around the country.

The commercial operator at Jean is Las Vegas Glider Rides or Las Vegas
Soaring Center, operated by John Michael Henderson, 702.470.1010. Mr.
Henderson's companies are not listed on the SSA site as a Business
Partner. We do refer those one time riders not interested in lessons
to Mr Henderson.

Off group.
Was the Michael, offering expert advice in the Pawn Stars 2-33 glider
episode, Michael Henderson?

Frank Whiteley

On Aug 24, 10:47*am, Bill D wrote:
On Aug 24, 8:01*am, Frank Whiteley wrote:









On Aug 23, 2:50*pm, Drew Pearce wrote:

Currently many commercial glider operations do not want to
work with some ticket agencies reselling their tickets because
they cannibalize business from customers already searching for
them online. They have professional *sales people, slick yet
vague websites, the advertising budget to get top search engine
placement and can often sell for less than a commercial glider
operator because they make a good profit off of unredeemed
gift certificates.

If commercial glider operators do not want to work with them
now, then I would expect they will just quit the FAST program if
it means they would have to accept gift certificates sold by a
third party ticket agency. So then it is conceivable that
commercial operations would see a loss of business and
participating clubs would be over burdened with rides. If people
are buying a gift for a glider ride, is it then legal or ethical to
send the gift recipient to a non-profit club when the customer felt
they were dealing with a commercial business? Does the fact
that a ticket agency make a profit on the ride cause a problem
for the non-profit club status?

The way the SAA FAST program works now, the majority of
people being sent to a flight school would not have otherwise
found them and so are most likely helping increase their
business. However, if most of the people sent to them through
the FAST program are really just looking for a ride and typically
would have bought directly from the operator, then the FAST
program no longer makes since to operators. A commercial
operation typically takes a loss when honoring a FAST
certificate.

Caution should be used before trying to remove any SSA
business member since this may cause some legal problems for
the SSA. New rules could be created for the FAST program to
close any loopholes which could cause the program to collapse.
Maybe only allow participating flight schools who actually honor
the FAST certificates be allowed to resale the FAST certificates.
You may also want to limit the number a FAST certificates each
one can resale (since one could buy or lease a glider and
towplane to operate just 1 day a year) plus require that sales
methods for FAST certificates need to be directed primarily
towards customers planning to use them at their own location.
This needs more thought before setting the rules but this gives
an idea of how to close the loopholes without causing legal
problems. The US parachute association supposedly had a bad
experience trying to kick out a business member once for
similar reasons and were not successful in removing them I
heard.

A flight school who works with a third party ticket agency can
still offer the FAST program to those students that schedule with
them through the third party ticket agency and who really want
a lesson. The flight school can purchase the book packets
directly from the SSA for $50, give them to any students coming
in for an intro lesson and then get their $50 back when the SSA
receives the membership certificate. This is what the Hollister
Soaring Center does with every new student. The SSA gets a
new member and the student gets essentially free books plus a
membership. There is no need or advantage for the SSA to work
with any third party ticket agency that I can see.

I would like to add a bit of information to this thread.

1800skyrides is a brand and was acquired by Headband LLC in October
2010. *The former company was IGO Vincent LLC. *When consulted, I
advised them of the considerable ill will the brand carried in the US
soaring community. Part of their marketing plan is to use localized
domains and targeted search placement. *I advised them to have an
agreement or relationship to market to specific operations. *If an
operation opts out, then don't refer customers to them, but don't
offer up a specific operation until said agreement exists.

FAST packages are flight lessons, intended to grow soaring, not thrill
rides. *However, soaring is thrilling, adventurous, exciting, and
invitations to become involved long term should include this
emphasis. *It is an aero sport with awards, benchmarks, records, and
competition. *Individual participation in those aspects varies and the
promotion or stifling of those aspects by soaring organizations also
varies. *FAST packages should be part of the invitation to become
involved.

Should Headband LLC dba Soaring Sports be able to sell FAST packages
and refer to agreeable organizations? *An SSA member and help recently
sold FAST packages as a soaring promotion at Oshkosh, armed with a
list of SSA clubs and business members that participated in redeeming
packages. *So some will be contacted out of the blue that they got it
while at Oshkosh.

Soaring Adventures of America,www.800soaring.com, is a long time SSA
business member. *They are not selling FAST packages, but glider
rides. *If you check the locations, California and Colorado (both high
activity soaring states), are distinctly missing. *I suspect this is
probably part of the halo effect of the regionalized efforts against
the previously bad actions of IGO Vincent.

The questions are whether the price a third party will charge for
their marketing services is justified, that what they are marketing is
honestly described, and whether we allow them to use our 'product'.
If we do allow it, then we have something to say about the honesty.
Soaring Sports has been doing what they were asked to do, but they
were warned that 800skyride.com carried baggage. *Now if a soaring
organization also offers glider rides, that can also be an offering,
again with an established agreement/relationship, with or without SSA
business membership, FAST packages, or whatever. *It would be dumb to
offer anything without a redemption agreement.

I think we all agree that soaring needs promotion.

Frank Whiteley

Soaring does need promotion.

The FAST program is an excellent way to do that. *However, at $99
there is precious little profit opportunity for anyone. *It usually
works out as a shared loss between the club/operator and the SSA to
promote soaring which it is hoped benefits both in the long run.

There's no way for a middleman/marketer/distributor to profit unless
games are played with the money. *This is mainly betting on a low
redemption ratio but can also be a strong arm after-the-fact
negotiation with the the service provider to accept less money. *None
of these tactics reflect well on the SSA.

Saying that "800 Skyride/Soaring Sports" has some "baggage" is putting
it most kindly. *Dealing with an eager prospect who has paid an
exorbitant price on the internet for a voucher you can't redeem (BTDT)
doesn't lead to "baggage" it leads to a PR nightmare for soaring in
general.

I've seen the 3rd party marketeers try their game in several
businesses and it invariably fails miserably even if high margins are
possible since it forces large increases in the retail price cutting
demand.

These guys called me last week and asked if our club accepted FAST
certificates. I mumbled "yes" and he hung up. It really caught me by
surprise. I wonder if he marked me down as agreeing to let them
market our club?

Lane