What GA needs

This is a follow-on to the various discussions on the future of GA.

Why aren't the kids who grew up with cell phones and iPods not
interested in aviation?

One key factor is the antiquated airplanes we fly. If we could only
drive a1975 Chevy Nova or something similar, with bolted down wooden
panels and foggy instruments, I doubt many teenagers would be earger
to get their drivers license.

The second aspect is the fascination pilots seem to have with war
equipment, and the yearning for the 'good ol days'. Many pilots look
at a WW2 airplane like a B17 as if it were a technological marvel.
That may be true, but it just doesn't connect with the new generation.
Even though I am not from the iPod generation, I too found this
fascination with war equipment rather strange. Perhaps it is because
no one in my anscestry participated in the war.

How many kids do you see hanging around at antique car shows? Airports
are not too far from being an antique museum.

Aviation technology has marched on in great strides in the past 50
years. But almost all of the modernization has occured due to the
advancement in electronics. This is the only aspect that keeps some of
us still interested in aviation. That includes VOR, GPS, satellite
weather, flight planning tools, electronic charts, glass panels etc..
The mechanical aspects have been stagnant. All these modern
electronics are still housed in ancient aluminum panels that are
riveted togother. They creak and vibrate, and the engines consume
leaded fuel and puff out smoke and oil, and have frightening gas
mileage.

In order to appeal to the next generation, this is what I think we
need:
- a small turbine engine suitable for GA aircraft with fewer moving
parts and smoother operation
- gas mileage comparable to an SUV
- a fully composite airframe
- molded aesthetic interiors
- cost about 2-3x the price of a luxury car

The list is very ambitious, but we are on the right path with LSA.
What is still seriously lacking is the powerplant.
I would really like to see is a small turbine engine. I don't mean
salvaged APUs. It has to be something that is designed from the bottom
up as a GA powerplant.

Any comments?

"Andrew Sarangan" wrote in message
ups.com...
This is a follow-on to the various discussions on the future of GA.

Why aren't the kids who grew up with cell phones and iPods not
interested in aviation?

One key factor is the antiquated airplanes we fly. If we could only
drive a1975 Chevy Nova or something similar, with bolted down wooden
panels and foggy instruments, I doubt many teenagers would be earger
to get their drivers license.

The second aspect is the fascination pilots seem to have with war
equipment, and the yearning for the 'good ol days'. Many pilots look
at a WW2 airplane like a B17 as if it were a technological marvel.
That may be true, but it just doesn't connect with the new generation.
Even though I am not from the iPod generation, I too found this
fascination with war equipment rather strange. Perhaps it is because
no one in my anscestry participated in the war.

How many kids do you see hanging around at antique car shows? Airports
are not too far from being an antique museum.

Aviation technology has marched on in great strides in the past 50
years. But almost all of the modernization has occured due to the
advancement in electronics. This is the only aspect that keeps some of
us still interested in aviation. That includes VOR, GPS, satellite
weather, flight planning tools, electronic charts, glass panels etc..
The mechanical aspects have been stagnant. All these modern
electronics are still housed in ancient aluminum panels that are
riveted togother. They creak and vibrate, and the engines consume
leaded fuel and puff out smoke and oil, and have frightening gas
mileage.

In order to appeal to the next generation, this is what I think we
need:
- a small turbine engine suitable for GA aircraft with fewer moving
parts and smoother operation
- gas mileage comparable to an SUV
- a fully composite airframe
- molded aesthetic interiors
- cost about 2-3x the price of a luxury car

The list is very ambitious, but we are on the right path with LSA.
What is still seriously lacking is the powerplant.
I would really like to see is a small turbine engine. I don't mean
salvaged APUs. It has to be something that is designed from the bottom
up as a GA powerplant.

Any comments?


If all that was available for my 16 year old and his friends was a 75 Nova
there would be lots of them in the driveways of homes today. A drivers
license for a 16 year old isn't about the car as much as it is about
freedom. Sure kids are spoiled now and a 75 Nova would be tough to sell but
if there was nothing else and the other kids only had 75 Novas, don't kid
yourself they would be all over them.

While I agree that we need a modern aircraft at a "reasonable price" let's
keep in mind that the vast majority of youngsters that you think are
choosing not to fly because of the technology have never been close enough
to the current airplanes to even see the technology. I have little doubt
that the average 17 year old kid thinks the inside of the average GA plane
looks like the cockpit of a 777.

Point by point...

Small Turbine: I'd love it but the volume just isn't there for a clean sheet
design. Our best bet is an APU that has been reworked. And don't think
turbines are the end all be all of simplicity. I watched a while back hot
start his new Jet Ranger. That was a $80K error on his part.

Gas Mileage: Lots of aircraft approach that. The only problem is once you
get where you are going you still need the SUV.

Composites: All depends on the aircraft you design. If you design it without
complex curves good old aluminum will often be just as light. Add to that
you can let an AL aircraft live outside a hanger.

Interiors: Weight, and weight. It will always be an issue.

Cost: 3 x $50,000= $150K. We're there if you count the LSA planes. and for
$150K you can by a pretty damn nice certified aircraft.

There's something else there and I'm not sure what it is. In WWII how many
pilots were trained by the US? We've been in a war in Iraq since 2003 how
many pilots has the US Military trained in that time?

Let's face it in the post WWII USA airline pilots were considered at the
high end of the cool scale. Now, not so much.

On Mon, 10 Sep 2007 14:42:16 -0500, "Gig 601XL Builder"
wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net wrote in
:

While I agree that we need a modern aircraft at a "reasonable price" let's
keep in mind that the vast majority of youngsters that you think are
choosing not to fly because of the technology have never been close enough
to the current airplanes to even see the technology.


So the next time the local municipal airport holds an open house for
the public, they should be sure ample leaflets are available at the
local K-12 student campuses. Even better would be a brief
presentation personally inviting everyone to take a reasonably priced
introductory flight.

And there need to be large 'Public Welcome' banners flying around the
airport to attract motorists. Too often these sorts of inexpensive,
but effective marketing are overlooked.

From what I've seen, usually the attendance at these events is largely
made up of aviators and others associated with the airport, not new
blood.

Larry Dighera wrote:

On Mon, 10 Sep 2007 14:42:16 -0500, "Gig 601XL Builder"
wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net wrote in
:


While I agree that we need a modern aircraft at a "reasonable price" let's
keep in mind that the vast majority of youngsters that you think are
choosing not to fly because of the technology have never been close enough
to the current airplanes to even see the technology.



So the next time the local municipal airport holds an open house for
the public, they should be sure ample leaflets are available at the
local K-12 student campuses. Even better would be a brief
presentation personally inviting everyone to take a reasonably priced
introductory flight.

And there need to be large 'Public Welcome' banners flying around the
airport to attract motorists. Too often these sorts of inexpensive,
but effective marketing are overlooked.

From what I've seen, usually the attendance at these events is largely
made up of aviators and others associated with the airport, not new
blood.

This is why the EAA has been promoting the Young Eagles for the last 10
years, to get the young exposed to aviation. Not all kids that fly will
be pilots, but maybe a few will get the bug and continue on.

--

Regards, Ross
C-172F 180HP
KSWI

Recently, Andrew Sarangan posted:

This is a follow-on to the various discussions on the future of GA.

Why aren't the kids who grew up with cell phones and iPods not
interested in aviation?

(rest snipped for brevity)

I think you've hit on a big reason already. iPods, internet computing and
such are passive involvements that require little in the way of
commitment, education, sacrifice, and focus. In short, just the opposite
of what is required to get actively involved in GA.

Beyond that, the barriers to entry have increased significantly in the
last couple of decades due to many factors, including an overly-litigious
society and urban sprawl. One way that interests can grow into active
involvements is through incremental experiences. When I was a kid,
although we lived in large cities, there were plenty of public places to
fly model planes within walking distance of our house. Today, I don't know
of one place within an hour's drive to do that. There isn't even a decent
hobby shop in our city from which to buy materials or kits to build flying
model planes. It makes it tough to maintain interest if you can't have
positive experiences along the way.

Neil

"Andrew Sarangan" wrote in message
ups.com...
This is a follow-on to the various discussions on the future of GA.

Why aren't the kids who grew up with cell phones and iPods not
interested in aviation?

One key factor is the antiquated airplanes we fly. If we could only
drive a1975 Chevy Nova or something similar, with bolted down wooden
panels and foggy instruments, I doubt many teenagers would be earger
to get their drivers license.

The second aspect is the fascination pilots seem to have with war
equipment, and the yearning for the 'good ol days'. Many pilots look
at a WW2 airplane like a B17 as if it were a technological marvel.
That may be true, but it just doesn't connect with the new generation.
Even though I am not from the iPod generation, I too found this
fascination with war equipment rather strange. Perhaps it is because
no one in my anscestry participated in the war.

How many kids do you see hanging around at antique car shows? Airports
are not too far from being an antique museum.

Aviation technology has marched on in great strides in the past 50
years. But almost all of the modernization has occured due to the
advancement in electronics. This is the only aspect that keeps some of
us still interested in aviation. That includes VOR, GPS, satellite
weather, flight planning tools, electronic charts, glass panels etc..
The mechanical aspects have been stagnant. All these modern
electronics are still housed in ancient aluminum panels that are
riveted togother. They creak and vibrate, and the engines consume
leaded fuel and puff out smoke and oil, and have frightening gas
mileage.

In order to appeal to the next generation, this is what I think we
need:
- a small turbine engine suitable for GA aircraft with fewer moving
parts and smoother operation
- gas mileage comparable to an SUV
- a fully composite airframe
- molded aesthetic interiors
- cost about 2-3x the price of a luxury car

The list is very ambitious, but we are on the right path with LSA.
What is still seriously lacking is the powerplant.
I would really like to see is a small turbine engine. I don't mean
salvaged APUs. It has to be something that is designed from the bottom
up as a GA powerplant.

Any comments?


Thanks for jump-starting this discussion again.

Comments, not in any particular order:
1. When I started attending fly-ins, the first impression was the decrepit
state of the airport facilities. Most of the buildings/hangers were built
in the 1930s through 1950s, and many of them look like they haven't been
painted since.

2. Since I've since gotten used to the facilities, the next impression is
the demographics: a bunch of grumpy old men. I have no doubt that when
these same individuals are talking cars, they talk about how the 1958 Chevy
ruined the automobile, or when talking politics, how Kennedy was a traitor
and deserved to be assissinated.

3. I wish LSAs hadn't been prohibited from using turbines, even if a good
one to use isn't available now.

4. I just put up a longwire antenna for my shortwave, I still think being
able to hear news from a long was away is a pretty cool thing; basically,
ZERO kids do. But a subset do find the technical aspects of propogation
interesting. Ham radio and shortware used to be exotic, they aren't
anymore. When long distance phone calls were $5 for 3 minutes, long
distance was exotic, it isn't anymore. Aviation isn't exotic anymore, but
pitching the personal achievement aspect of it will get (some) kids
interested. I'm not sure pitching the "utility" of GA works, anymore the
pitching the utility of a $20,000 bass boat does, while Safeway is having a
seafood sale this week.

5. As for your specific points, I think a small turbine is always going to
cost more that a piston engine, we are there on mileage, composites,
interiors, and pretty close to there on price.

On Mon, 10 Sep 2007 21:29:13 GMT, "Ken Finney"
wrote in :

Aviation isn't exotic anymore,

Perhaps not, but seed sown the magical moment when a kid experiences
leaving the pavement during his first introductory flight in a Cessna
152 will blossom in the future when his situation is ready for it.

Larry Dighera writes:

Perhaps not, but seed sown the magical moment when a kid experiences
leaving the pavement during his first introductory flight in a Cessna
152 will blossom in the future when his situation is ready for it.

That assumes that he finds it a magical moment. Not everyone does. About 16%
of the population is afraid of flying--and that's in large, stable aircraft,
not tin cans.

On Sep 10, 5:29 pm, "Ken Finney" wrote:
"Andrew Sarangan" wrote in message

ups.com...





This is a follow-on to the various discussions on the future of GA.

Why aren't the kids who grew up with cell phones and iPods not
interested in aviation?

One key factor is the antiquated airplanes we fly. If we could only
drive a1975 Chevy Nova or something similar, with bolted down wooden
panels and foggy instruments, I doubt many teenagers would be earger
to get their drivers license.

The second aspect is the fascination pilots seem to have with war
equipment, and the yearning for the 'good ol days'. Many pilots look
at a WW2 airplane like a B17 as if it were a technological marvel.
That may be true, but it just doesn't connect with the new generation.
Even though I am not from the iPod generation, I too found this
fascination with war equipment rather strange. Perhaps it is because
no one in my anscestry participated in the war.

How many kids do you see hanging around at antique car shows? Airports
are not too far from being an antique museum.

Aviation technology has marched on in great strides in the past 50
years. But almost all of the modernization has occured due to the
advancement in electronics. This is the only aspect that keeps some of
us still interested in aviation. That includes VOR, GPS, satellite
weather, flight planning tools, electronic charts, glass panels etc..
The mechanical aspects have been stagnant. All these modern
electronics are still housed in ancient aluminum panels that are
riveted togother. They creak and vibrate, and the engines consume
leaded fuel and puff out smoke and oil, and have frightening gas
mileage.

In order to appeal to the next generation, this is what I think we
need:
- a small turbine engine suitable for GA aircraft with fewer moving
parts and smoother operation
- gas mileage comparable to an SUV
- a fully composite airframe
- molded aesthetic interiors
- cost about 2-3x the price of a luxury car

The list is very ambitious, but we are on the right path with LSA.
What is still seriously lacking is the powerplant.
I would really like to see is a small turbine engine. I don't mean
salvaged APUs. It has to be something that is designed from the bottom
up as a GA powerplant.

Any comments?

Thanks for jump-starting this discussion again.

Comments, not in any particular order:
1. When I started attending fly-ins, the first impression was the decrepit
state of the airport facilities. Most of the buildings/hangers were built
in the 1930s through 1950s, and many of them look like they haven't been
painted since.

2. Since I've since gotten used to the facilities, the next impression is
the demographics: a bunch of grumpy old men. I have no doubt that when
these same individuals are talking cars, they talk about how the 1958 Chevy
ruined the automobile, or when talking politics, how Kennedy was a traitor
and deserved to be assissinated.

3. I wish LSAs hadn't been prohibited from using turbines, even if a good
one to use isn't available now.

4. I just put up a longwire antenna for my shortwave, I still think being
able to hear news from a long was away is a pretty cool thing; basically,
ZERO kids do. But a subset do find the technical aspects of propogation
interesting. Ham radio and shortware used to be exotic, they aren't
anymore. When long distance phone calls were $5 for 3 minutes, long
distance was exotic, it isn't anymore. Aviation isn't exotic anymore, but
pitching the personal achievement aspect of it will get (some) kids
interested. I'm not sure pitching the "utility" of GA works, anymore the
pitching the utility of a $20,000 bass boat does, while Safeway is having a
seafood sale this week.

5. As for your specific points, I think a small turbine is always going to
cost more that a piston engine, we are there on mileage, composites,
interiors, and pretty close to there on price.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

My experience was the same when I took my intro flight. I've been a
huge fan of flight sim for many years before I decided to take an
intro ride. It was a huge let down. A rickety old 152 and a cranky
instructor that cost me a good chunk of money (I was a poor grad
student). My ride never went past the intro ride stage. A few months
later I took another intro ride in a Diamond Aircraft Katana. This was
a whole different beast. Comfy, great view, nice panel. Even though it
cost more than the 152, there was no question about my decision. 12
years later I still haven't stopped flying. I can totally relate to
people not getting 'turned on' by our current fleet.

I do not buy that today's kids are not up to the challenge. They are
better informed and more capable than we were at their age. Most of us
grew up at a time when digital watches were cool, and we were awed by
the performance of the Timex Sinclair computer.

However, I am pleased to see the developments in LSA and all the new
airplanes coming into the market with newer technologies. I am also
pleased to see the efforts being put into developing newer powerplants
and turbines. Although cost is a big factor, I don't think that will
be a show stopper if the developments are truly attractive. People
will find a way to pay for what they find appealing. Very few people
really "need" an SUV, yet people buy them at ten times the price of a
used Geo Metro which would serve them just fine. Very few people
"need" the five bedroom 3 bathroom triple garage homes, but people
line up to buy these things and are willing to go into lifelong debt
for it. The coolness factor can easily overpower the expense factors.
But it is very difficult to convince someone to come up with $100k
plus a few grand a year for a rusty airplane that looks, feels and
really is 20 years old even if it travels at three times the driving
speed.

Ken Finney writes:

2. Since I've since gotten used to the facilities, the next impression is
the demographics: a bunch of grumpy old men. I have no doubt that when
these same individuals are talking cars, they talk about how the 1958 Chevy
ruined the automobile, or when talking politics, how Kennedy was a traitor
and deserved to be assissinated.

There are lots of them right here on this newsgroup.