Opinions on Cessna 340, 414 and 421

john szpara wrote in message ws.com...
I'm considering buying a plane, and have decided to go with a twin. I
understand that there will be more maintenance costs over a single,
but I like the safety margin of the second engine. I also like the
idea of pressurization, because we have some high mountains out here
on the west coast. It would be nice to fly over them at a safe
altitude, and I would also like to be able to get on top of most of
the weather.

John: you might also want to take a look at the Commander series too.
Some are pressurized and some not, but all have great usefull loads
and excellent performance numbers. Seating is available for up to 11,
with decent range. From what I remember when I had a demo flight years
ago in a 520, an engine out situation was pretty ho-hum....dial in a
little trim, set the numbers and run the checklist. Yes, they do have
one real big AD on the spar, but the inspection requirements have a
considerable time spacing as to when it has to be done. Geared engines
are not that big of a deal to operate with as long as you learn the
proper procedures and follow them.

For lots more info, visit www.aerocommander.com.
I've got a 680 that I'm about to go retrieve and start a ground up
restoration/overhaul/update. It's been in storage since the late 70's
and hasn't had any changes since the day it rolled off the assembly
line in '57.

Craig C.

John: you might also want to take a look at the Commander series too.
Some are pressurized and some not, but all have great usefull loads
and excellent performance numbers. Seating is available for up to 11,
with decent range. From what I remember when I had a demo flight years
ago in a 520, an engine out situation was pretty ho-hum....dial in a
little trim, set the numbers and run the checklist. Yes, they do have
one real big AD on the spar, but the inspection requirements have a
considerable time spacing as to when it has to be done. Geared engines
are not that big of a deal to operate with as long as you learn the
proper procedures and follow them.

Thanks for the tip.

I don't need to take any more than 6 people, and one reason why I like
the 400 series is that you can install (or there is already) a potty
onboard. That will make life easier on the wife and passengers on
longer trips. I hope to eliminate (most) airline travel with whatever
plane I get. Can you do that in any Commander?

John Szpara
Affordable Satellite
Fiero Owner 2-84 Indy Pace cars, 86 Coupe, 88 Formula 3.4, 88 Coupe, 88GT

A couple more commander questions. My best case scenario has the
following parameters:

1. Cruising speed 200+ kts (not just at the flight levels)
2. cabin class
3. potty
4. pressurized
5. price around $150k, +/- 20k
6. ceiling above FL240

Do any Commanders fit the profile?

John Szpara
Affordable Satellite
Fiero Owner 2-84 Indy Pace cars, 86 Coupe, 88 Formula 3.4, 88 Coupe, 88GT

"john szpara" wrote in message
s.com...
A couple more commander questions. My best case scenario has the
following parameters:

1. Cruising speed 200+ kts (not just at the flight levels)
2. cabin class
3. potty
4. pressurized
5. price around $150k, +/- 20k
6. ceiling above FL240

Do any Commanders fit the profile?


The Commander's don't fit that, but neither do the 421's...not in that price
range (not one ready to fly without putting a lot more money into it to make
it airworthy, or one right up against engine OH).

The Commander's don't fit that, but neither do the 421's...not in that price
range (not one ready to fly without putting a lot more money into it to make
it airworthy, or one right up against engine OH).

I've seen enough of them advertized in or near my price range,
otherwise I wouldn't even be considering a cabin class twin. That's
without a prebuy inspection, of course, so I won't know if those
planes are really worth it until I start to look at them (with
professional help).

John Szpara
Affordable Satellite
Fiero Owner 2-84 Indy Pace cars, 86 Coupe, 88 Formula 3.4, 88 Coupe, 88GT

On Wed, 31 Mar 2004 08:00:07 GMT, john szpara
wrote:

A couple more commander questions. My best case scenario has the
following parameters:

1. Cruising speed 200+ kts (not just at the flight levels)
2. cabin class
3. potty
4. pressurized
5. price around $150k, +/- 20k
6. ceiling above FL240

Do any Commanders fit the profile?

Those are tough requirements, but most are commensurate with a cabin
class twin.

1. Most planes (short of the low drag homebuilts) are going to have a
difficult time hitting 200kts (without running the engines at 100%)
below 10,000 ft. Flight levels and turbo are the way most airplanes
reach 200+ kts. As an example, I fly a Seneca II. Below 10,000, the
fastest you can go with 75% power is 175kts. At 20,000 75% power gets
190kts. Seneca's don't perform like the 3/4 series Cessnas, but the
concept translates. The 3/4 series twins will probably do 190kts
below 10k, and 220 in the 20s.

2, 3, 4. The 4 series Cessna twins meet all these requirements.

5. 150k is the LOW end of the range for the 3/4 series twins. Most
are listed with asking prices from $150 to $500k. Most in this price
range have high time engines, worn paint and interiors, and old
avionics. A cheaper alternative would be the Cessna T310Q or T310R.
Similar performance - 6 seats but without the pressurization and
potty. $150k will buy a nice one.

6. The pressurized 3/4 series Cessna's have ceilings from 25-30k
feet.

Keep in mind that the purchase cost of these twins is in relative
terms quite low. If a 421 was produced today, it would easily cost
$2M. (A 2004 Baron 58 is $1M).
Operating/maintenance/insurance/hangar costs on a 20-30 year old cabin
class twin can approach $400/hr. Also, have a look at
http://www.factoryengines.com and look how much a rebuilt GTSIO520 for
a 421 costs. $50k!

As others mention - the upcoming wing spar AD is a serious issue.
Many shops put the compliance cost at close to $50k.
Some additional info can be found he
http://www.twincessna.org/
http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/regulat...incessna2.html
http://www.cessnatwinssparcorp.org/

-Nathan

Do some advanced research on fuel required and pax load before you buy.
(play with sample weight and balance for the loads you anticipate carrying)
If you want to fill the seats, your fuel load will be significantly
reduced to avoid overgross.
Short legs may not get you the performance you are looking for.

john szpara wrote:
A couple more commander questions. My best case scenario has the
following parameters:
1. Cruising speed 200+ kts (not just at the flight levels)
2. cabin class
3. potty
4. pressurized
5. price around $150k, +/- 20k
6. ceiling above FL240

I don't think anything fits all those requirements.

Mike
MU-2

"john szpara" wrote in message
s.com...
A couple more commander questions. My best case scenario has the
following parameters:

1. Cruising speed 200+ kts (not just at the flight levels)
2. cabin class
3. potty
4. pressurized
5. price around $150k, +/- 20k
6. ceiling above FL240

Do any Commanders fit the profile?

John Szpara
Affordable Satellite
Fiero Owner 2-84 Indy Pace cars, 86 Coupe, 88 Formula 3.4, 88 Coupe, 88GT

"Mike Rapoport" wrote in message
ink.net...
I don't think anything fits all those requirements.

A 421 would, but to get one with the cabin he desires (potty) would be one
of the later models and it's going to cost a LOT more than $150K by probably
a factor of two or three.

For example: http://www.aso.com/i.aso/AircraftVie...craft_id=79362 (at
$275K) (I'm not sure it has a potty in the back).

Or http://www.aso.com/i.aso/AircraftVie...craft_id=67456 ($509K)

"john szpara" wrote in message
s.com...
A couple more commander questions. My best case scenario has the
following parameters:

1. Cruising speed 200+ kts (not just at the flight levels)
2. cabin class
3. potty
4. pressurized
5. price around $150k, +/- 20k
6. ceiling above FL240

Since price was one of the requirements (probably the only critical one),
nothing fits.

Mike
MU-2

"Tom Sixkiller" wrote in message
...

"Mike Rapoport" wrote in message
ink.net...
I don't think anything fits all those requirements.

A 421 would, but to get one with the cabin he desires (potty) would be one
of the later models and it's going to cost a LOT more than $150K by
probably
a factor of two or three.

For example: http://www.aso.com/i.aso/AircraftVie...craft_id=79362
(at
$275K) (I'm not sure it has a potty in the back).

Or http://www.aso.com/i.aso/AircraftVie...craft_id=67456 ($509K)

"john szpara" wrote in message
s.com...
A couple more commander questions. My best case scenario has the
following parameters:

1. Cruising speed 200+ kts (not just at the flight levels)
2. cabin class
3. potty
4. pressurized
5. price around $150k, +/- 20k
6. ceiling above FL240