500 foot rule and pilot opinion poll

Dennis observed pretty much what I did at Hobbs - finishing at a set height
away from the normal finish gate puts more workload on pilots during the
final glide. In most contests, you can see the finish gate and judge your
approach accordingly. For a "virtual" donut gate, you are relying on
instruments.

Then, after the finish, you are avoiding all the other classes whistling in
at red line while descending from your now excessive finish height.

Again, I'm not going to argue against a specific finish height, but
finishing 2 miles or more away from the normal finish gate is more difficult
in my experience and doesn't add safety, which was the stated goal.

And my final point - most flight computers won't give you a glide to the
outside of a cylinder, so you are relying on doing math in your head on the
last few miles home.

I can do final glide math in my head, than you very much, but it's harder
than following your flight computer. I fail to see how extra work load is
increasing safety.

Mike ASW 20 WA




"dennis brown" wrote in message
ink.net...
Safer, in theory, seems to be the proper phrase.

We had this for one day at Hobbs regionals this year and 1000 ft min. for
the
rest of the contest (sports class).

Theory is right. The practical aspect is that I spent more heads down time
looking at my distance versus altitude as I got inside the last 10 miles
or so
of the finish cylinder. When we had a finish gate, we
knew where it was, we could see it. No heads down. We could still finish
well above worm disruption altitude. I see no benefit in the lowest
finishes.
Anything lower than a hundred or so feet has no redeeming virtue.

Another anti-safety aspect is that finishing at 1000 ft at 2 miles from
the
field means that you spend considerable time in the immediate vincinity
of the pattern slowing down and descending. More time means more
exposure. There is an optimum here. Too little time is bad - no options.
Too much time is bad - too much exposure to other lawn darts.

The last part is that there really needs to be a final aligning point,
regardless of the task called. Not all the classes should have the same
final turn, but all should be within a relatively small (45 degrees?)
angle
from the field, located so as to put the glider into a downwind leg with
minimal manuvering.

I think the finish cylinder is an unexpected (to me, anyway) FAILURE in
capital letters.
Dennis

In article 7YO9b.481795$uu5.83242@sccrnsc04, "Paul Remde"

wrote:
Hi,

This discussion is very interesting.

I applaud John for his efforts to make sailplane racing safer. I agree
with
the theory that if we just move the playing field up 500 feet, it will
dramatically improve safety. It is my impression that is what he is
trying
to do.

Why is that so bad?

I also agree that I'd prefer to have fewer rules, but in this case I must
lean toward safety over simplicity.

I must admit that I am a pilot with 2 young children and I will vote for
anything that will allow me to continue to fly contests with less reason
to
worry that I'll leave my kids without a father or my wife without her
husband.

I must also admit that I am a relatively inexperienced contest pilot -
having flown in only 4 contests.

Fly Safe,

Paul Remde

"Andy Blackburn" wrote in message
...
I will be interested to see how we measure the effectiveness
of the rule in meeting its stated purpose -- should
it be approved on a trial basis -- and how that information
will be used in determining whether to keep it or scrap
it and at what level of competition. If the intent
is to put it in on a trial basis, and, if pilots don't
object en masse, to roll it out permanently, then I'm
against it even on a trial basis. With out a critical,
empirical filter on adding complexity to the rules
I think it's a recipe for incrementally obfuscating
the rules over time -- to the point that we lose track
the bigger objectives.

9B


At 19:36 16 September 2003, Mark Zivley wrote:
We need fewer rules in general. The Darwin principle
doesn't pay much
attention to rules anyway.

John Cochrane wrote:
Fellow US pilots:

This year's SRA pilot poll will be on line in a few
days. It contains
a question on the 500 foot rule. I urge you to read
it, think about
it, and vote. In particular, this is a rule that benefits
newer, less
experienced pilots. It doesn't matter much to the
top 5 national and
world group, many of whom hate the idea. If you like
this idea for
your contests, you have to voice your opinion.

Here is the proposal: before the finish, you have
to be above 500 feet
AGL in a donut from 2 miles out to one mile out. If
you don't make
this altitude limit, you will be scored for distance
points when you
land at the airport. When the actual finish is a line,
you may then
dive down and cross the line at the usual altitude.

Why? Sooner or later, you will find yourself in that
awful situation,
5-7 miles out at MacCready 0 plus 50 feet. Or maybe
minus 50 feet.
You're passing over the last good field, and the last
chance to
properly evaluate a field, do a pattern, look for
wires, etc. From
here on in, if you don't make it, it's straight in
to whatever you
find. Common sense says 'stop, look for a thermal,
and land in this
good field.' But the contest is on the line; 400 points
and more call
you to try to pop it in over the fence. This is not
fun. It's not
safe. And it's entirely a creation of the rules.

The proposal removes the agonizing points vs. life
decision. If you
don't make it with a 500 foot margin, you don't get
speed points. Make
your decisions based only on safety. If it's safer
to squeak it in to
the airport, do so. If it's safer to land in the good
field 5 miles
out, do that. Forget the race.

This proposal is tantamount to moving the airport
up 500 feet. The
race is entirely unaffected. A race with the airport
located 500 feet
above the surrounding terrain is just as valid, just
as fun, and just
as challenging.

The rule is only suggested for regionals, and perhaps
only sports
class. It will have to have substantial support from
pilots before it
makes it to nationals.

For more details, including accident statistics, see
my article 'Safer
Finishes' in the October 2002 Soaring. It's also online
at my website,

http://gsbwww.uchicago.edu/fac/john....ch/Papers/#For
_glider

I will also keep updated versions of this message
on the website - I'm
sure to hear more objections that I can answer in
the FAQ

FAQ:

1. We should leave this to pilot judgment.

We'll never substitute for pilot judgment, and handling
the Mc 0 + 50
feet situation will still take lots of judgment.

There is plenty of precedent for rules that remove
from 'pilot
judgment' decisions that pit safety vs. competitive
advantage. We used
to leave gross weight to pilot judgment. Now we impose
weight limits,
and drag scales around to contests. We used to leave
the question
whether you can relight after a landout to pilot judgment.
Now we ban
the practice. We ban cloud flying instruments. And
so forth.

Making a low final glide is a maneuver that requires
extensive
experience and judgment. While there is a good case
that national
level pilots can be expected to have this judgment,
this is not the
case for regionals, and especially sports-class regionals,
which are
explicitly aimed at newer, less experienced pilots.

2. I love the low pass finish. Don't take all the
fun away

This proposal does not eliminate the fun low pass.
The actual finish
can still take place over a line, at the usual altitude.

Many pilots think they will end up too high for a
proper low finish,
but that is a mistake. If you pass one mile out at
500 feet and 80
kts, you will pass the finish at 50 feet well below
redline. It takes
more than 500 feet just to gain the extra speed. Try
it - I have.

3. This will lead to unintended consequences that
are even worse.

a) Pulling up over the line.

Several pilots complained that a 500 foot finish would
lead to pilots
racing in at 200 feet and then popping over the line.
Good point.
That's why the proposal is now that you must be over
500 feet for the
whole distance between mile 1 and mile 2. (It is treated
like special
use airspace). Now the optimal thing to do is stay
above 500 feet the
whole way.

b) Traffic problems.

Perhaps people thermaling at 400 feet just outside
the line will
interefere with finishing traffic. Not likely, as
this does not happen
now, and all we've done is move the whole business
up 500 feet. But
moving from a circle to a donut will further separate
finishers from
thermalers, as it eliminates finishers below 500 feet
counting on
popping up at the last moment.

c) Heads-down

Experience with the current 500 foot finish in sports
class has not
revealed a big heads-down problem. Set your GPS to
finish over the
airport at 500 feet. That gives you a 150 foot or
so margin over the
donut.

4. This isn't the number one problem.

It isn't. Off field landings and terrain impact are
still the number
one problems. Crashes near the airport and from low
energy finish are
in the US a distant third.

Sailplane safety does not consist of only attacking
the number one
problem. You each problem as a solution comes. Midairs
are not the
number one problem, yet we all wear parachutes and
look around, and
avoiding midairs is a central concern of all rule
making. Assembly
errors are not the number one problem, yet we all
do checks and the
rules now require them. If we can improve the #99
problem, at no cost
to the validity or fun of the race, soaring gets a
little bit safer.

5. OK, I see that a high finish is a good idea, but
losing all speed
points seems awfully harsh. Can't we just tack on
a 5 minute penalty
or something?

The key is not the finish, the key is how this looks
5 miles out when
the pilot is passing the last good field. The whole
point is to remove
'but if I squeak it in, I'll get all those speed points'
from the
mental calculation. The only way to do this is to
give essentially the
same points for landing 5 miles out as for squeaking
it in to the
airport.

6. Soaring needs a little danger. If you can't stand
the heat, get out
of the kitchen.

Several pilots have forcefully stated this opinion.
If you think that
physical danger and an occasional fatality are important
to keep
soaring exiting, vote against this rule.


Disclaimer: All of this is entirely my own opinion
and has no
connection with the rules committee.

John Cochrane (BB)

Somehow, John, I feel that your posting should have ended with the word
"vote".

Perhaps a member of the rules committee should not be 'campaigning' to
shame/scare us into our "opinions".

Personally, I think the 15minute rule, and this rule, are unnecessary
complications to an already overly -complicated sport.

It takes a season of flying just to get used to the new rules! And then
next year, guess what?
New rules!






John Bojack "J4"





This year's SRA pilot poll will be on line in a few days. It contains
a question on the 500 foot rule. I urge you to read it, think about
it, and vote. In particular, this is a rule that benefits newer, less
experienced pilots. It doesn't matter much to the top 5 national and
world group, many of whom hate the idea. If you like this idea for
your contests, you have to voice your opinion.

Here is the proposal: before the finish, you have to be above 500 feet
AGL in a donut from 2 miles out to one mile out. If you don't make
this altitude limit, you will be scored for distance points when you
land at the airport. When the actual finish is a line, you may then
dive down and cross the line at the usual altitude.

Why? Sooner or later, you will find yourself in that awful situation,
5-7 miles out at MacCready 0 plus 50 feet. Or maybe minus 50 feet.
You're passing over the last good field, and the last chance to
properly evaluate a field, do a pattern, look for wires, etc. From
here on in, if you don't make it, it's straight in to whatever you
find. Common sense says "stop, look for a thermal, and land in this
good field." But the contest is on the line; 400 points and more call
you to try to pop it in over the fence. This is not fun. It's not
safe. And it's entirely a creation of the rules.

The proposal removes the agonizing points vs. life decision. If you
don't make it with a 500 foot margin, you don't get speed points. Make
your decisions based only on safety. If it's safer to squeak it in to
the airport, do so. If it's safer to land in the good field 5 miles
out, do that. Forget the race.

This proposal is tantamount to moving the airport up 500 feet. The
race is entirely unaffected. A race with the airport located 500 feet
above the surrounding terrain is just as valid, just as fun, and just
as challenging.

The rule is only suggested for regionals, and perhaps only sports
class. It will have to have substantial support from pilots before it
makes it to nationals.

For more details, including accident statistics, see my article "Safer
Finishes" in the October 2002 Soaring. It's also online at my website,

http://gsbwww.uchicago.edu/fac/john....rs/#For_glider

I will also keep updated versions of this message on the website - I'm
sure to hear more objections that I can answer in the FAQ

FAQ:

1. We should leave this to pilot judgment.

We'll never substitute for pilot judgment, and handling the Mc 0 + 50
feet situation will still take lots of judgment.

There is plenty of precedent for rules that remove from "pilot
judgment" decisions that pit safety vs. competitive advantage. We used
to leave gross weight to pilot judgment. Now we impose weight limits,
and drag scales around to contests. We used to leave the question
whether you can relight after a landout to pilot judgment. Now we ban
the practice. We ban cloud flying instruments. And so forth.

Making a low final glide is a maneuver that requires extensive
experience and judgment. While there is a good case that national
level pilots can be expected to have this judgment, this is not the
case for regionals, and especially sports-class regionals, which are
explicitly aimed at newer, less experienced pilots.

2. I love the low pass finish. Don't take all the fun away

This proposal does not eliminate the fun low pass. The actual finish
can still take place over a line, at the usual altitude.

Many pilots think they will end up too high for a proper low finish,
but that is a mistake. If you pass one mile out at 500 feet and 80
kts, you will pass the finish at 50 feet well below redline. It takes
more than 500 feet just to gain the extra speed. Try it - I have.

3. This will lead to unintended consequences that are even worse.

a) Pulling up over the line.

Several pilots complained that a 500 foot finish would lead to pilots
racing in at 200 feet and then popping over the line. Good point.
That's why the proposal is now that you must be over 500 feet for the
whole distance between mile 1 and mile 2. (It is treated like special
use airspace). Now the optimal thing to do is stay above 500 feet the
whole way.

b) Traffic problems.

Perhaps people thermaling at 400 feet just outside the line will
interefere with finishing traffic. Not likely, as this does not happen
now, and all we've done is move the whole business up 500 feet. But
moving from a circle to a donut will further separate finishers from
thermalers, as it eliminates finishers below 500 feet counting on
popping up at the last moment.

c) Heads-down

Experience with the current 500 foot finish in sports class has not
revealed a big heads-down problem. Set your GPS to finish over the
airport at 500 feet. That gives you a 150 foot or so margin over the
donut.

4. This isn't the number one problem.

It isn't. Off field landings and terrain impact are still the number
one problems. Crashes near the airport and from low energy finish are
in the US a distant third.

Sailplane safety does not consist of only attacking the number one
problem. You each problem as a solution comes. Midairs are not the
number one problem, yet we all wear parachutes and look around, and
avoiding midairs is a central concern of all rule making. Assembly
errors are not the number one problem, yet we all do checks and the
rules now require them. If we can improve the #99 problem, at no cost
to the validity or fun of the race, soaring gets a little bit safer.

5. OK, I see that a high finish is a good idea, but losing all speed
points seems awfully harsh. Can't we just tack on a 5 minute penalty
or something?

The key is not the finish, the key is how this looks 5 miles out when
the pilot is passing the last good field. The whole point is to remove
"but if I squeak it in, I'll get all those speed points" from the
mental calculation. The only way to do this is to give essentially the
same points for landing 5 miles out as for squeaking it in to the
airport.

6. Soaring needs a little danger. If you can't stand the heat, get out
of the kitchen.

Several pilots have forcefully stated this opinion. If you think that
physical danger and an occasional fatality are important to keep
soaring exiting, vote against this rule.


Disclaimer: All of this is entirely my own opinion and has no
connection with the rules committee.

John Cochrane (BB)

I need to think about the proposed new rule for a while. Then I
will decide how to vote.

I applaud John Cochrane's efforts to improve the US contest
rules. I admire his willingness to invite discussion in this
forum.

What I don't admire is:

1. Attacking John personally.

2. Complaining about other rules.

3. Complaining about the number of rules.

4. Brainless macho.

Let's stick to the issues. If your goal is persuasion, address
the points of the other guy's argument. If your goal is to be
annoying, don't change a thing.

"Ninety-eight percent of the posters in this group give the rest
a bad name." - Stephen Wright (originally about lawyers).

-Pat

John,

I admire your commitment to safety, and before GPS I would have
objected strenously to the doughnut. But with modern navigational
aids, I no longer need the outward spiral of white crosses marking the
demise of so many miscalculated final glides to point the way home.
Indeed, perhaps we can finally dispose of their remains and their
memories. People around the gliderport were beginning to take notice
that we run an unsafe operation.

BTW, I question the rhetorical impact of "life and death decisions"
for 400 points. I would suggest that those 400 points are an incentive
to take a few extra turns before you light the reheat. As for landing
close to the airport, some of us scout the fields before we start
competing, just like some road racers like to walk the track before
they strap on 600 horsepower.

Alas, a doughnut at the end of a flight may be just what I need. Yet
another rule up the wazoo. I'm starting to wince as I sit down for my
postfligh brew.


As a side not, remember all, that a poll, while it measures the
opinions of its respondents, asks only the questions its authors want
answered. Measure its objectivity by how well it addresses what you
think is important. I don't expect to see a question asking if we
should abolish the rules committee and only establish an ad hoc
commmittee in the event that we have a clear, compelling reason to
change the rules.

(John Cochrane) wrote in message . com...
Fellow US pilots:

This year's SRA pilot poll will be on line in a few days. It contains
a question on the 500 foot rule. I urge you to read it, think about
it, and vote. In particular, this is a rule that benefits newer, less
experienced pilots. It doesn't matter much to the top 5 national and
world group, many of whom hate the idea. If you like this idea for
your contests, you have to voice your opinion.

Here is the proposal: before the finish, you have to be above 500 feet
AGL in a donut from 2 miles out to one mile out. If you don't make
this altitude limit, you will be scored for distance points when you
land at the airport. When the actual finish is a line, you may then
dive down and cross the line at the usual altitude.
John Cochrane (BB)

Why are we constantly adding more rules to competition flying? It is
becoming more and more complicated. We cannot just add more and more
rules to deal with people's decision making all the time. Soaring is a
sport that requires decision-making and that is one of the big
challenges to the sport. I am opposed to more and more rules that
continue to add to the complexity of the sport.

Tim Hanke
Libelle 201B "H1"
Saratoga Springs, New York

Someone, please enlighten me!

What is the difference between a 2+30 task call plus 15 min, and a 2+45 task
call?
I understand that it is scoring suicide to arrive early in either case, and
that, given consistent flying conditions, it is best to arrive 'on time'. So
why not just call a 2+45 task? Or call a 2+30 task if that is what the day
warrants.

I do like the finish ring idea if there is a 'lead-in' sector for mixed
tasks (i.e. --assigned task for 15 m and MAT for Sports). gives time for an
orderly procession of landings at the airport. I think the high speed finish
is spectacular and fun, but I am more afraid of a 'last-second' landout then
a loss of a few points.

Hartley Falbaum

"Tim Hanke" wrote in message
m...
(John Cochrane) wrote in message
. com...
Fellow US pilots:

This year's SRA pilot poll will be on line in a few days. It contains
a question on the 500 foot rule. I urge you to read it, think about
it, and vote. In particular, this is a rule that benefits newer, less
experienced pilots. It doesn't matter much to the top 5 national and
world group, many of whom hate the idea. If you like this idea for
your contests, you have to voice your opinion.

Here is the proposal: before the finish, you have to be above 500 feet
AGL in a donut from 2 miles out to one mile out. If you don't make
this altitude limit, you will be scored for distance points when you
land at the airport. When the actual finish is a line, you may then
dive down and cross the line at the usual altitude.
John Cochrane (BB)

Why are we constantly adding more rules to competition flying? It is
becoming more and more complicated. We cannot just add more and more
rules to deal with people's decision making all the time. Soaring is a
sport that requires decision-making and that is one of the big
challenges to the sport. I am opposed to more and more rules that
continue to add to the complexity of the sport.

Tim Hanke
Libelle 201B "H1"
Saratoga Springs, New York

Why are we constantly adding more rules to competition flying? It is
becoming more and more complicated. We cannot just add more and more
rules to deal with people's decision making all the time. Soaring is a
sport that requires decision-making and that is one of the big
challenges to the sport. I am opposed to more and more rules that
continue to add to the complexity of the sport.

Tim Hanke
Libelle 201B "H1"
Saratoga Springs, New York


Tim, you have said it all. Moffett said that you need to make a decision every
fifteen seconds, and that was without computers. Those were flight decisions,
now we must make a decision every fifteen seconds and spend the other fourteen
programming our flight computers.

Bruce Patton
96S

Sorry John, I don't like it. It is my job as the pilot in command to
not jeopardize my safety or the safety of people and things on the
ground (or in the air, for that matter). Just because I'm final
gliding in a race does not excuse me from that responsibility.

And anyone who doesn't fly that way is going to ignore any "safety"
rule, anyway. I can just see the stall/spin accidents at the finish
line/cylinder/gate as Joe Bagadonuts in his still-fully-ballasted
(forgot to dump, of course) DGLSASW-69 desperately pulls up to get
over the 500' penalty wall, and finds out what it looks like to be
pointing straight down at 400 ft and 40 knots. Yee Haa - that'll have
em cheering in the cheap seats!

As an individual, if you are convinced by John's arguments, then by
all means use his guidelines for finishing - it probably won't hurt
your score one little bit, and might even help.

But a rule is not the answer to stupidity.

BTW, a Garmin GPS 3 Pilot can be setup to take you to exactly 501 ft 1
mile from the finish, or whatever point in space you want, around
multiple turnpoints - with an "ILS glideslipe" display to guide you
all the way. Do you really want to be staring at a display at that
point in the flight? Not me!

Lets go back to long and relatively low start gates, small turn
cylinders, and geographically significant finish gates.

In an AST, of course.

Kirk Stant
66

Ok, this rule may address one senario, but may create another one that
is just as bad or worse.


Let say I am 3 miles out a 700 feet in calm air. Since where i fly we
have a 2 mile long runway and the finish cyilnder is typically
centered on the center of the runway the end of the runway is only 2
miles away. However I just miss the 500 foot finish at 2 miles out
(or am not sure if I hit it) At that point I hit a weak thermal (Which
can happen quite often at low altitudes) I am only 400 ft, but if I
can work this thermal to gain only 100 feet it is worth the 400 point
differnence between being scored only distance as opposed to speed.
(that is if I understand the rules correctly) Now you have a glider
thermalling between 400-600 feet AGL with other gliders finishing at
the 500ft level.
I think this is a much more enticing carrot for the competitive pilot
than trying to decide wheather or not to land in a field 2 miles short
of the finish. In my senero the choice is thermal at low altitude and
risk a mid air with other finishing gliders which most experinced
pilots might be willing to try espeically for just 100 or 50 ft gain
of altitude. In the original senerio the risk is if I don't make the
airport, I may damage an aircraft landing short and be out of the
contest all together as well as for the rest of the season. I think
the current rules are acutally safer than the propose rule for this
reason, as the consequences of a bad decision are much worse.

Brian Case
CFIIG/ASEL

In article ,
says...
Let say I am 3 miles out a 700 feet in calm air. Since where i fly we
have a 2 mile long runway and the finish cyilnder is typically
centered on the center of the runway the end of the runway is only 2
miles away. However I just miss the 500 foot finish at 2 miles out
(or am not sure if I hit it) At that point I hit a weak thermal (Which
can happen quite often at low altitudes) I am only 400 ft, but if I
can work this thermal to gain only 100 feet it is worth the 400 point
differnence between being scored only distance as opposed to speed.
(that is if I understand the rules correctly) Now you have a glider
thermalling between 400-600 feet AGL with other gliders finishing at
the 500ft level.

As I understand the rule, it's not just a matter of popping above the
500' agl floor of the cylinder. You'd have to thermal up, go back to
the outside of the 2 mile cylinder, and fly from there to the 1 mile
cylinder while staying above 500' agl. In the the situation you
describe, would you still be likely to try that weak thermal, or would
you just go ahead and land?

--
!Replace DECIMAL.POINT in my e-mail address with just a . to reply
directly

Eric Greenwell
Richland, WA (USA)