I removed myself from an airline flight - long

This happened in Houston years ago - maybe 6 or 7. Curious about what any airline people think of this.

I boarded a full flight in Houston for a flight to the NY area. We're about ready to go and can hear the cargo doors being closed below. I notice that there is some repeated closing going on so I look out from my usual window seat and can see a small conference being held on the ramp. Slam! A few concerned looks.... Slam!

Apparently there was a problem with a door. The conference gets bigger and a few more slams are performed. Now it's getting comical because it occurs to me that whatever the problem appears to be, the plan is to get 'more bigger' guys to keep slamming it until it works. Slam! The crew announces that there is a little problem with a cargo door but that we'll push back as soon as it's fixed.

Then I get spooked. Slam! With too many Flying magazine articles and NTSB report browsing behind me, I start thinking the worse. There is a problem with a cargo door and the half baked fix is for bigger guys to close it. Slam! My mind starts racing back to "cargo door opens and airliner crashes" incidences. And there are a few as I recall.... Slam!

Now my stomach starts to turn and I'm ready to hyperventilate in the stuffed cabin. I look around and no one is concerned in the least. Cattle to slaughter! I try to calm down and think between slams, 'OK, I can see what's going on. I don't know jack about the a/c or the door but it doesn't look like the ramp crew does either (I'm sure I was mistaken but that's what it looked like). I'm thinking that the appropriate thing would be for the pilot to go down and take a look before we push back'.

So I signal one of the cabin crew to come over and indicate that I need to get up and go forward. No urgency or panic inducing stuff. Just matter of fact like I need air. When I get up front I ask to speak to the pilot and I do. "Hi guys, I'm watching the folks on the ramp trying to get the door closed (acknowledged). I do a little flying too and I'm just kinda wondering if you are going to go out and check it out before we leave?" The captain explained that he's sure that the maintenance crew has it under control and that no, there's really no reason for the crew to have to go out too.

Well, they were as nice as could be about it and didn't even let a patronizing smirk out but I was totally spooked and said that I was going to get off the plane. I explained that it shouldn't be a problem since I only had a carry on bag and well, I was just going to stay behind. I went back and very calmly got my bag and got off. Somebody greeted me and told me that there were no more flights tonight and that I'd have to wait until tomorrow. And that the airline wouldn't be responsible. No problem, good night.

After a few calls to get a room I returned to the gate area and it seemed that some or all of the crew got off the plane to take a break while waiting. There were some whispers and finger pointing that were clearly about me but I was at peace with my decision.

What do you think the crew thought of my behavior? Would you ever consider doing something similar? Would I? My actions still make sense to me as I write them but I doubt that I would ever do such a thing again.

Ask yourself: If this had been your plane and your passengers, would you have flown it? If not. Be at peace with your decision.

Of course, as a PP, you have a big advantage over the airline guys. You know that, if you cancel a flight for a reason like this, you will still have a job in the morning, you won't suddenly be out in the job market with few transferable skills and crushing debts from flight academies.

I'll bet the crew was thinking, "I wish that was me." as they watched you walk away.
--
Roger Long

"Maule Driver" wrote

The captain explained that he's sure that the
maintenance crew has it under control and that no, there's
really no reason for the crew to have to go out too.

The ground crew has a lot more training and experience with
the cargo doors than does the flight crew. Airlines have
specialist to work on each task and if I recall correctly, at
one time, one of the major airlines even had a line maintenence
foreman doing the aircraft pre-flight inspection instead of the
flightcrew.
Airline pilots are just that, pilots, they are not trained to
do the work of a maintenence crew.

Bob Moore
PanAm (retired)

IMO, one of the attributes of a good pilot is the ability to make (and carry
through with) decisions that in your best judgement are the safest course of
action - regardless of peer (and other) pressures.

I'd be a rich man if I had a dollar for everytime an aircraft comes out of
the care of engineers with a different set of issues than those it was being
maintained for - all too often (engineers included) folks default to
laziness and try to pretend the problem doesn't exist rather than making
their own (probably unpopular) decision and getting to the root cause of
it - at the end of the day it's NOT normal to have to slam a cargo door with
ever increasing velocity to get it to close properly.

You erred on the side of caution and safety because you saw something that
(a) "Was NOT the norm" and (b) "Could have had serious in-flight
consequences".

Good call in my opinion.

"Maule Driver" wrote in message

I boarded a full flight in Houston for a flight to the NY area....

Did the plane crash? bg


Look, no big deal. The crew probably thought you were a bit anal, but that
doesn't matter. With doors like that, there's a light in the cockpit
indicating closed and locked vs not closed and locked. It usually works on
a microswitch or optical system of some sort. [ on the B747 cargo door,
there was an optical beam that had to travel through about 25 holes in metal
parts of the latching assembly, all of which are supposed to align properly
when the door is properly closed and locked. Can you spell f-u-b-a-r?] On
doors that get cycled many times per day, the alignment often goes awry. If
the door is accessible from inside, there's usually a procedure to visually
verify status regardless of light function. If not accessible, then the
light issue has to be resolved. First the handlers would try 25 times or
so, [ :-) ] trying to avoid having to call mx, then they'd advise the
cockpit, and the call goes to mx and they fix the alignment or switch
problem.

Bottom line -- you made a decision based on limited information about a
system with which you were not familiar. Your prerogative.

JG

What do you think the crew thought of my behavior?
Would you ever consider doing something similar?
Would I? My actions still make sense to me as I
write them but I doubt that I would ever do such a thing again.

As airplanes go, I think pilots are pretty well-informed people. I've
flown a couple of times commercially since starting flight training
and it's just interesting to note how many similarities there are
between the little planes and the big ones. Right down to the whining
sound the intercoms make.

I think if I started to feel like a flight is unsafe, I'd have done
something similar. What was the airline's ticket policy? Did it cost
you more money to go on a later flight?

Rob

Ok, let me get this straight.... You are asking if you were smart by getting out of an airplane that:
a) had a cargo door that wouldn't latch... hmm wasn't that a bit of a problem with early 727s or was it DC9s?
b) had a cargo loading crew who's solution was "get a bigger hammer" and hit it alot harder... hey, it works with empty beer cans, this is just aluminium!
c) was being flown by pilots who placed all of their trust in the judgement of the "bigger hammer guys" after all, we sit way up here in front
d) was being flown by pilots who where of the opinion that "the bigger hammer guys" some how would guarantee the safety of the flight cause after all, they're staying on the ground

I think you were the ONLY smart one.
--
Jim Burns III

Remove "nospam" to reply

DC-10. The relevant book is "The Rise and Fall of the DC-10."

Bob Gardner

"Jim" wrote in message ...
Ok, let me get this straight.... You are asking if you were smart by getting out of an airplane that:
a) had a cargo door that wouldn't latch... hmm wasn't that a bit of a problem with early 727s or was it DC9s?
b) had a cargo loading crew who's solution was "get a bigger hammer" and hit it alot harder... hey, it works with empty beer cans, this is just aluminium!
c) was being flown by pilots who placed all of their trust in the judgement of the "bigger hammer guys" after all, we sit way up here in front
d) was being flown by pilots who where of the opinion that "the bigger hammer guys" some how would guarantee the safety of the flight cause after all, they're staying on the ground

I think you were the ONLY smart one.
--
Jim Burns III

Remove "nospam" to reply

On Wed, 17 Dec 2003 11:03:59 +1300, "Kiwi Jet Jock"
wrote:

IMO, one of the attributes of a good pilot is the ability to make (and carry
through with) decisions that in your best judgement are the safest course of
action - regardless of peer (and other) pressures.

In article ,
Robert Moore wrote:
The captain explained that he's sure that the
maintenance crew has it under control and that no, there's
really no reason for the crew to have to go out too.

The ground crew has a lot more training and experience with
the cargo doors than does the flight crew. Airlines have
specialist to work on each task and if I recall correctly, at
one time, one of the major airlines even had a line maintenence
foreman doing the aircraft pre-flight inspection instead of the
flightcrew.
Airline pilots are just that, pilots, they are not trained to
do the work of a maintenence crew.

Bob Moore
PanAm (retired)


Maybe not, but the pilots are responsible for the safety of the flight.
It's obviously up to the captain as to whether he trust the ground or
maintenance crew, but to say that he should trust them simply because he
doesn't know any better seems like a huge risk to me. If the captain
doesn't know any better maybe he should spend some time with the ground
or maintenance crew to better educate himself.

The bottom line is that the original author was not comfortable, and he
exercised his option to exit the airplane.



JKG