Enlisted pilots

Roger that Captain. The confusion came from my confusing the term
"Pilot" with "Naval Aviator". I ignorantly assumed the two terms were
interchangeable, but I now know I was incorrect. Thanks for the
clarification. Take care.



"Jake Donovan" wrote in message news:6UcRa.16144$AD3.3690@lakeread04...
MPower,

I was going to let the originator decide where to take this but you need to
be corrected. After contacting all organizations that have anything to do
with Naval Aviation training and the SEALS, there are NO, I repeat NO
enlisted NAVAL AVIATORS in the Navy.

The people you are referring to were trained for special missions in private
aircraft and do not hold a 13XX designator. They may be pilots who are in
the Navy, but they are NOT Naval Aviators nor can they fly as Pilot in
Command of any Naval Aircraft without a designated Naval Aviator in a dual
controlled aircraft. They can not LOG anytime in a Naval Aircraft, even if
they get stick time.

And to clear another point up, the original person who was "one of 11
enlisted pilots" who just retired, was trained through this program and was
not a NAVAL AVIATOR. He was a private pilot. Yes, his service jacket was
looked at.

Being a pilot and being a Naval Aviator are not the same. In the same
breath, a 1310 designated Naval Aviator who does not hold a Private Pilot
Certificate can not fly solo in a privately owned Cessna 172 legally.

This should tie-up all loose ends.

JD

"M Power" wrote in message
om...
"Doug \"Woody\" and Erin Beal" wrote in message
...
On 7/15/03 9:28 PM, in article
, "M Power"
wrote:

You are incorrect Captain. I'm active duty Navy as well, and trust me
when I tell you that there are a few SEALs that are presently
qualified as Naval Aviators. They do not fly any of the aircraft that
you mentioned below. They only fly non-military aircraft. Where they
are stationed does not matter. But they are indeed qualified. Take
care.



Mpower...

Do they actually wear the gold wings? This has been a point of
contention
in the thread.

--Woody

Woody - I wish I could answer that, but none of the guys I know wear
their wings. I really don't know what they would wear.

LOL! Ain't that the truth!

JD
"Ogden Johnson III" wrote in message
...
"Jake Donovan" wrote:

[Snip tie-up of loose ends.]

This should tie-up all loose ends.

Erm. Have you forgotten where you are posting, Jake? This is the
Usenet. *Nothing* can tie up all loose ends on the Usenet. There
will always be one "But my best friend's uncle's third-cousin-twice-
removed's wife saw the sun rise in the West on May 2, 1904. So
there!"

OJ III
[Anyone for a go-around at one of s.m.n's favorites, the 100-knot
carrier?]

"Pechs1" wrote...
Sid- I know of one plowback/retread who eventually had command of an
operational squadron, the rag, got his deep draft, and finally a wing.

name please??

Different one, but Don Barbaree (SERGRAD VT-25 ca 1979) was CO of Kitty Hawk
just prior to Iraqi Freedom. Currently acting COMOPTEVFOR.

"Pechs1" wrote...
Sid- I know of one plowback/retread who eventually had command of an
operational squadron, the rag, got his deep draft, and finally a wing.

name please??

Different one, but Don Barbaree (SERGRAD VT-25 ca 1979) was CO of Kitty Hawk
just prior to Iraqi Freedom. Currently acting COMOPTEVFOR.

"Robert Moore" wrote in message
. 8...
How did he meet the FAA requirement of "rated in type" in order
to log the time as "pilot flight time"? Rated-in-type is a
requirement for all aircraft over 12'500# and jet aircraft.

I'll ask him when I get a chance. I know he never attempted to apply those
hours, so they never received FAA scrutiny. Maybe, he was uninformed and it
was a useless effort. It did help him pass the time while hitching patrol
rides to keep his flight pay.

Please educate me in a number of areas.

There are a number of questions which the FAA has not answered consistently
over the last thirty years. With regards to Naval Aviators, the FAA has
allowed Navy pilots, with proper documentation, to apply hours acquired when
the pilot didn't have a license of any sort. In these cases, even the PIC
wasn't rated in-type at the time he collected and logged his military hours.

That said, are military aircraft type-rated? That would answer a number of
questions.

The question of co-pilot time (SIC) is even more confusing. The FAA uses
aircraft certification to determine if co-pilot time can be logged. If the
certified aircraft requires two pilots, SIC time can be logged. If the
certified aircraft does not require two pilots, PIC time can be traded back
and forth, but no SIC time can be logged. If type-rating is required, these
hours can't be logged.

An interesting case is the S-3. For a number of years, NFO's logged SIC
time, privately. A number of these NFO got the FAA and airlines to accept
the time. In 1988, NAVAIR started requiring that this time be kept
formally.

Which leads to the next question, does SIC time have to be logged while
rated-in-type?

"Robert Moore" wrote in message
. 8...
How did he meet the FAA requirement of "rated in type" in order
to log the time as "pilot flight time"? Rated-in-type is a
requirement for all aircraft over 12'500# and jet aircraft.

My initial reply read like word soup, so I'll try again.

How did the FAA accept military time when the military pilot lacked a
license, let alone a type-rating?

If you fly an aircraft that requires a type-rating, you need to be
type-rated. Are military aircraft type-rated? If they aren't, how does
that affect logging? What can be done retroactively?

It seems that the FAA is clearer explaining when you CAN log time that
describing when you CAN'T. I guess this is what leads to inconsistent
interpretations.

I know the Navy has made a number of things easier for pilots that are
planning a post-Naval career with the airlines. What was the situation in
the sixties and seventies?

I recall a number of funny stories about how NFO's got their ratings.

"C.D. Damron" wrote in
How did the FAA accept military time when the military pilot
lacked a license, let alone a type-rating?

FAR 61.73 deals more with getting an FAA certificate than logging
flight time, but it does explain some of the thinking.

Section 61.73: Military pilots or former military pilots: Special
rules.
(a) General. Except for a rated military pilot or former rated
military pilot who has been removed from flying status for lack of
proficiency, or because of disciplinary action involving aircraft
operations, a rated military pilot or former rated military pilot
who meets the applicable requirements of this section may apply, on
the basis of his or her military training, for:

(1) A commercial pilot certificate;

(2) An aircraft rating in the category and class of aircraft for
which that military pilot is qualified;

(3) An instrument rating with the appropriate aircraft rating for
which that military pilot is qualified; or

(4) A type rating, if appropriate.

(b) Military pilots on active flying status within the past 12
months. A rated military pilot or former rated military pilot who
has been on active flying status within the 12 months before
applying must:

(1) Pass a knowledge test on the appropriate parts of this chapter
that apply to pilot privileges and limitations, air traffic and
general operating rules, and accident reporting rules;

(2) Present documentation showing compliance with the requirements
of paragraph (d) of this section for at least one aircraft category
rating; and

(3) Present documentation showing that the applicant is or was, at
any time during the 12 calendar months before the month of
application --

(i) A rated military pilot on active flying status in an armed
force of the United States; or

(ii) A rated military pilot of an armed force of a foreign
contracting State to the Convention on International Civil
Aviation, assigned to pilot duties (other than flight training)
with an armed force of the United States and holds, at the time of
application, a current civil pilot license issued by that
contracting State authorizing at least the privileges of the pilot
certificate sought.

(c) Military pilots not on active flying status during the 12
calendar months before the month of application. A rated military
pilot or former rated military pilot who has not been on active
flying status within the 12 calendar months before the month of
application must:

(1) Pass the appropriate knowledge and practical tests prescribed
in this part for the certificate or rating sought; and

(2) Present documentation showing that the applicant was, before
the beginning of the 12th calendar month before the month of
application, a rated military pilot as prescribed by paragraph (b)
(3)(i) or paragraph (b)(3)(ii) of this section.

(d) Aircraft category, class, and type ratings. A rated military
pilot or former rated military pilot who applies for an aircraft
category, class, or type rating, if applicable, is issued that
rating at the commercial pilot certificate level if the pilot
presents documentary evidence that shows satisfactory
accomplishment of:

(1) An official U.S. military pilot check and instrument
proficiency check in that aircraft category, class, or type, if
applicable, as pilot in command during the 12 calendar months
before the month of application;

(2) At least 10 hours of pilot-in-command time in that aircraft
category, class, or type, if applicable, during the 12 calendar
months before the month of application; or

(3) An FAA practical test in that aircraft after --

(i) Meeting the requirements of paragraphs (b)(1) and (b)(2) of
this section; and

(ii) Having received an endorsement from an authorized instructor
who certifies that the pilot is proficient to take the required
practical test, and that endorsement is made within the 60-day
period preceding the date of the practical test.

(e) Instrument rating. A rated military pilot or former rated
military pilot who applies for an airplane instrument rating, a
helicopter instrument rating, or a powered-lift instrument rating
to be added to his or her commercial pilot certificate may apply
for an instrument rating if the pilot has, within the 12 calendar
months preceding the month of application:

(1) Passed an instrument proficiency check by a U.S. Armed Force in
the aircraft category for the instrument rating sought; and

(2) Received authorization from a U.S. Armed Force to conduct IFR
flights on Federal airways in that aircraft category and class for
the instrument rating sought.

(f) Aircraft type rating. An aircraft type rating is issued only
for aircraft types that the Administrator has certificated for
civil operations.

(g) Aircraft type rating placed on an airline transport pilot
certificate. A rated military pilot or former rated military pilot
who holds an airline transport pilot certificate and who requests
an aircraft type rating to be placed on that person's airline
transport pilot certificate may be issued that aircraft type rating
at the airline transport pilot certificate level, provided that
person:

(1) Holds a category and class rating for that type of aircraft at
the airline transport pilot certificate level; and

(2) Passed an official U.S. military pilot check and instrument
proficiency check in that type of aircraft as pilot in command
during the 12 calendar months before the month of application.

(h) Evidentiary documents. The following documents are satisfactory
evidence for the purposes indicated:

(1) An official identification card issued to the pilot by an armed
force may be used to demonstrate membership in the armed forces.

(2) An original or a copy of a certificate of discharge or release
may be used to demonstrate discharge or release from an armed force
or former membership in an armed force.

(3) Current or previous status as a rated military pilot with a
U.S. Armed Force may be demonstrated by --

(i) An official U.S. Armed Force order to flight status as a
military pilot;

(ii) An official U.S. Armed Force form or logbook showing military
pilot status; or

(iii) An official order showing that the rated military pilot
graduated from a U.S. military pilot school and received a rating
as a military pilot.

(4) A certified U.S. Armed Force logbook or an appropriate official
U.S. Armed Force form or summary may be used to demonstrate flight
time in military aircraft as a member of a U.S. Armed Force.

(5) An official U.S. Armed Force record of a military checkout as
pilot in command may be used to demonstrate pilot in command
status.

(6) A current instrument grade slip that is issued by a U.S. Armed
Force, or an official record of satisfactory accomplishment of an
instrument proficiency check during the 12 calendar months
preceding the month of the application may be used to demonstrate
instrument pilot qualification.

"Pechs1" wrote...
Sid- I know of one plowback/retread who eventually had command of an
operational squadron, the rag, got his deep draft, and finally a wing.

name please??

Different one, but Don Barbaree (SERGRAD VT-25 ca 1979) was CO of Kitty Hawk
just prior to Iraqi Freedom. Currently acting COMOPTEVFOR.

Hmmm? I've known some Naval Aviators that can't fly either....but thats
another story!

Tom Clarke
CDR USN(Ret)
Ops specialist/C130 IP VX-20
(One of those civilian pilots that fly Navy aircraft
There are a bunch of us here at Pax (TPS, VX-20),
I used to fly for JB here at VX-20)

Jake Donovan wrote:

LOL! Ain't that the truth!

JD
"Ogden Johnson III" wrote in message
...
"Jake Donovan" wrote:

[Snip tie-up of loose ends.]

This should tie-up all loose ends.

Erm. Have you forgotten where you are posting, Jake? This is the
Usenet. *Nothing* can tie up all loose ends on the Usenet. There
will always be one "But my best friend's uncle's third-cousin-twice-
removed's wife saw the sun rise in the West on May 2, 1904. So
there!"

OJ III
[Anyone for a go-around at one of s.m.n's favorites, the 100-knot
carrier?]

"C.D. Damron" wrote in message
news:XOnRa.79707$ye4.59310@sccrnsc01...

Snip

I know the Navy has made a number of things easier for pilots that are
planning a post-Naval career with the airlines. What was the situation in
the sixties and seventies?

I recall a number of funny stories about how NFO's got their ratings.

I have been cruising the ICW the last week so I haven't been on the board in
a while.

In the early 60's there weren't very many airline pilots or management
people without military training/experience. The FAA (Federal Aviation
Agency in those days) hadn't been around very many years, and IIRC it was
the CAA (Civilian Aviation Agency) until 1958 of so.

Acceptance of military flight time was a lot less informal, and maybe not
quite as accurate as it should have been. It was still to a large extent a
"good Ol'boy network". Qualifications were often exaggerated, to say the
least. Didn't really concern me as I had no desire to fly for the airlines.

I knew of one reserve F-8 driver (and there was more than one, not just in
F-8's) that made the switch to a multi-engine commercial airline seat, in a
matter of just a few months, in the mid 60's. I guess he figured it was
better drawing the civilian big bucks, than getting shot at.