"Interesting" wind yesterday

("Jay Honeck" wrote)
Gotta love the Midwest in late winter!


We're calling it early spring. There was a memo.

Actually, we've had a 7 year run of pretty mild winters in the Twin Cities
beginning in 1998. Two years ago it reached 75F on St. Patrick's Day.

(1996 was brutal!!! - 40F/C for the first time ever in the Twin Cities)


Montblack

Jim Burns wrote:

....
natural reaction will be to use rudder to point the nose at the runway.
....

I've never understood this whole turn to final hype, and I've never
understood why such a reaction should be natural. All my instructors
kept hammering into my head: When in the circuit, never fly below the
yellow triangle (plus half the wind) and always be sure to fly
coordinated. That's what I've been doing since then, and I've never had
any problems.

Stefan

(1996 was brutal!!! - 40F/C for the first time ever in the Twin Cities)


Montblack

Ah.... a little Merlot would make it feel all warm and toasty!

Jim

Ahh.. you said the magic word... "circuit" and (just guessing the .ch) that
I can assume you are not from the US, please correct me if I'm wrong.

The FAA does not require spin training for private or commercial pilots but
instead puts emphasis on stall/spin awareness. One of the primary areas
being the base to final turn because you are low, slow and if uncoordinated,
in trouble. It's stressed on every written exam and in every oral exam that
I've had. They stress what a quartering tailwind can do to you while on
base leg, how it can blow you past the extended runway centerline and how
incorrect corrections can get a pilot in trouble. I've seen students
incorrectly use rudder to try to "get back" to the centerline, it is
something that an instructor has to be aware of, stay on top of, and like
you say, keep pounding it into the student because the student simply
forgets. The closer your pattern is to the runway, the angle created
becomes greater and at the same time creates an "urgent" situation for the
student. He now is faced with a discussion. This is where an instructor
must teach the student not to feel committed to the approach and to perform
a go around.

Now, here's one for you.... yellow triangle? airspeed marker?

Jim - CFII

Jim Burns wrote:

Ahh.. you said the magic word... "circuit" and (just guessing the .ch) that
I can assume you are not from the US, please correct me if I'm wrong.

No, you're absolutely correct. But believe me, the aerodynamics work
excatly the same on this side of the pond!

being the base to final turn because you are low, slow and if uncoordinated,
in trouble.

That's the point: Low, yes, but you are *never* slow and uncoordinated
at this point. Never. *This* has become my primary "natural" reaction.
But then, I've learnt how to use a rudder at day one.

Now, here's one for you.... yellow triangle? airspeed marker?

Doesn't this exist in the USA? Yellow triangle on the airspeed
indicator: Recommended minimum approach speed. (Something like 1.3 Vs at
MTOW and landing configuration or some such.) Drop below this at the
checkride, and you are invited to show up for a second try.

Stefan

Nope, no yellow triangle on the airspeed indicator unless the pilot or his
instructor choose to put one there. Not a requirement. We do use 1.3Vs as
an approach speed, but it normally isn't marked.

It sounds like you've got a good approach method, one easily duplicated for
students here in the US, includeing the yellow triangle.

I believe that MOST aerodynamics work the same on your side of the pond,
sans one.... the $$$ needed to create lift are higher on your side of the
pond!

Jim

"Stefan" wrote in message
...
Jim Burns wrote:

Doesn't this exist in the USA? Yellow triangle on the airspeed indicator:
Recommended minimum approach speed. (Something like 1.3 Vs at MTOW and
landing configuration or some such.) Drop below this at the checkride, and
you are invited to show up for a second try.

Stefan

Never seen a yellow marker on the ASI. Is it part of the instrument or
stuck on the outside. What flap setting is it for?

Mike
MU-2

"Stefan" wrote in message
...
Milen Lazarov wrote:

Jay Honeck wrote:

As I turned from base to final, the unexpectedly strong wind had me bent
out of shape pretty good, but I managed to wrestle the runway back into
alignment without entering the coffin-corner of cross controlling.

What is a coffin-corner and how does one get into it in the pattern?

Jay frivolously used that well defined term completely wrong, presumably
just because it sounds good. (A tactic which some journalists use, too,
especially when they write about aviation...) You never get into the
coffin corner at pattern altitude.

The stall speed is constant with indicated airspeed, while Vne is constant
with true airspeed (acually, it decreases somewhat at high altitudes). So
there is a point, at very high altitudes, where Vs meets Vne. This point
is called the coffin corner, because you can't escape from it (except by
descending): You can't slow down (stall) nor accelerate (Vne).

Stefan

I always thought that the "coffin corner" was where stall speed met the Mach
limit. I didn't think that it even applied to non-jet aircraft.

Mike
MU-2

"Mike Rapoport" wrote

I always thought that the "coffin corner" was where stall speed met the
Mach
limit. I didn't think that it even applied to non-jet aircraft.

Mike

No, I think the post above yours got it pretty much right..Vne is
significant, in that it demonstrates itself by nasty things like flutter, or
control reversal. Pull back on the stick to maneuver, or slow down, and
stall, or at least buffet like hell.

It is true, however, that it is pretty tough for a non jet aircraft to get
to the coffin corner. The Exxon tiger (can't think of the guy's name) that
has been trying to get the piston altitude record, has said that he is
really close to getting into coffin corner.
--
Jim in NC

On Tue, 8 Mar 2005 17:24:46 -0500, "Morgans"
wrote:


"Mike Rapoport" wrote

I always thought that the "coffin corner" was where stall speed met the
Mach
limit. I didn't think that it even applied to non-jet aircraft.

Mike

No, I think the post above yours got it pretty much right..Vne is
significant, in that it demonstrates itself by nasty things like flutter, or
control reversal. Pull back on the stick to maneuver, or slow down, and
stall, or at least buffet like hell.

It is true, however, that it is pretty tough for a non jet aircraft to get
to the coffin corner. The Exxon tiger (can't think of the guy's name) that
has been trying to get the piston altitude record, has said that he is
really close to getting into coffin corner.

Another "coffin corner" I have heard discussed is the convergence of
Vne and Vs as altitude increases. I think it went something like
this:

1. Vne is a TAS, so its IAS decreases with increasing altitude.
Vs is an IAS, so as IAS, it remains the same with increasing
altitude.
Therefore, Vne, in IAS converges with Vs in IAS as
altitude increases.
2. Seen the other way, the TAS of Vs increases with altitude,
converging with the fixed TAS of Vne.

Or something like that I guess.