"position & hold" going away

On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 01:47:29 -0400, Roger
wrote:

Several times I've been looking at a quarter mile, or longer, line of
planes ahead and heard, Thirty Three Romeo, turn on next taxiway, hold
short for departing traffic. Expect intersection departure. When they
said cleared for departure it had the word "expedite" in there. (Do
they still do that? Intersection take offs mixing with the big guys.
I haven't been into one of the really busy airports in over 6 or 7
years.)

I was leaving KIAD once in the 172 and got an intersection departure
from Y (or maybe Z, but I think Y) from 30, skipping ahead of a jet or
two that was back at the threshold.

aw

"Roger" wrote

Several times I've been looking at a quarter mile, or longer, line of
planes ahead and heard, Thirty Three Romeo, turn on next taxiway, hold
short for departing traffic. Expect intersection departure. When they
said cleared for departure it had the word "expedite" in there. (Do
they still do that?

So they let you jump line, so you could get off quicker? Cool!
--
Jim in NC

"Ben Hallert" wrote

Sometimes, I think that radio conversations like this are staged for
the benefit of making nearby student pilots feel better about their
radio work.

Nah, there are really people out there taking lessons that are *that*
clueless. I've heard quite a few conversations that bad, and worse. Some
of them end up being requested to call the tower. Some of them are told on
air that they are getting violated, and a number to call.

I often wonder how many of these end up getting their ticket. More of them
than should, I suppose. Sigh.
--
Jim in NC

"Roger" wrote

And if it doesn't work out the plane on final does a go around.
Couple of times I've been cleared to land and heard, Thirty Three
Romeo, go around, aircraft on the runway!".

Interesting things like that happen almost daily, even multiple times daily
at OSH during the last week of July. Most often, when someone does not
understand what "immediate turn into the grass, when speed allows."

Or, "keep it in the air until the (blank) dot.

Right?
--
Jim in NC

On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 21:40:25 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:


"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...

A lot of time? I don't see it. Unless the hold line is way back from the
runway, I can typically taxi onto the active and be rolling at full
throttle in 10 seconds or less. All they need to do is clear me for
takeoff when the airplane that just landed is 10 seconds or so from
clearing the runway and no time at all will be lost.


How long do you think it takes a heavy to do the same?

A DC-9 isn't a heavy, but I was on one at Philli International who was
bringing up the power during the turn onto the runway. We could hear
the tire squeal inside the plane. Still, I'd probably be able to get
out there and rolling sooner than he could. OTOH he could be "way up
there" while I'm just leaving the pattern.

I've always found it a bit intimidating to be taxiing behind something
I could taxi under, particularly with the knowledge there is another
big one right behind that I hope doesn't forget I'm there.

Several times I've been looking at a quarter mile, or longer, line of
planes ahead and heard, Thirty Three Romeo, turn on next taxiway, hold
short for departing traffic. Expect intersection departure. When they
said cleared for departure it had the word "expedite" in there. (Do
they still do that? Intersection take offs mixing with the big guys.
I haven't been into one of the really busy airports in over 6 or 7
years.)

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 20:23:51 -0600, Newps wrote:



Blueskies wrote:
"Matt Whiting" wrote in message ...

Robert M. Gary wrote:

That's hard to believe. P&H really saves a lot of time when the runway
is really busy. The only way I can see this working is if pilot learn
how to do "cleared for immediate takeoff". Most controllers avoid this
because "immediate" for many pilots means sitting on the runway while
they go through their last checklist.

A lot of time? I don't see it. Unless the hold line is way back from the runway, I can typically taxi onto the
active and be rolling at full throttle in 10 seconds or less. All they need to do is clear me for takeoff when the
airplane that just landed is 10 seconds or so from clearing the runway and no time at all will be lost.

Matt


Don't think takeoff clearance can be made when there is still an aircraft on the runway...

Sure there can. The only requirement is that that other aircraft be off
the runway before you get on it and start your takeoff roll. It's
called anticipated separation and applies to any separation standard.
As long as the separation is there when it's needed all the rest is
irrelavant.

Many, many, many years ago when they wee mixing prop and jet airliners
I remember sitting in the right seat of a V-35 on departure from
Detroit Metro. (DTW). We were rapidly gaining on the big tail of a
Constellation (which getting bigger fast) while a 707 was getting
closer and closer behind. We lifted off (would have cleared the tail
even if they were on the runway) as the Constellation turned off. As
I recall the 707 either caught us or passed us on roll out. But then
again as time passes my memory of that 707 has it closer and closer.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
Roger

On Thu, 11 Aug 2005 16:00:12 -0600, Newps wrote:



Roger wrote:



And if it doesn't work out the plane on final does a go around.
Couple of times I've been cleared to land and heard, Thirty Three
Romeo, go around, aircraft on the runway!".

The identified problem is because the controller forgets about the
aircraft in position and lets the aircraft land over the top of the one
on the runway.

Sounds like Oshkosh:-))
"Over the top" would scare the crap out of the people on the plane
holding as well, but I guess that's better than "on top" which has
happened on several occasions. The last one I remember was an
airliner landing on a commuter at night in California..

When given a position and hold, I always set at a slight angle so I
can see any thing that might be coming from behind.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

On Thu, 11 Aug 2005 11:38:33 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:


" Blueskies" wrote in message
...

Don't think takeoff clearance can be made when there is still an aircraft
on the runway...



FAA Order 7110.65P Air Traffic Control

Chapter 3. Airport Traffic Control-- Terminal

Section 9. Departure Procedures and Separation

3-9-5. ANTICIPATING SEPARATION

Takeoff clearance needs not be withheld until prescribed separation exists
if there is a reasonable assurance it will exist when the aircraft starts
takeoff roll.


And if it doesn't work out the plane on final does a go around.
Couple of times I've been cleared to land and heard, Thirty Three
Romeo, go around, aircraft on the runway!".

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 00:48:08 -0400, "Morgans"
wrote:


"Roger" wrote

And if it doesn't work out the plane on final does a go around.
Couple of times I've been cleared to land and heard, Thirty Three
Romeo, go around, aircraft on the runway!".

Interesting things like that happen almost daily, even multiple times daily
at OSH during the last week of July. Most often, when someone does not
understand what "immediate turn into the grass, when speed allows."

Or, "keep it in the air until the (blank) dot.

As I've said before, OSH is not a place for pilots who always do a
stabilized pattern. They tell you what, when, and where.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com


Right?

"Dave S" wrote in message
nk.net...

Up to ALL of them on the runway? In theory, of course, :P


How many is that? What's the historical trend?