This is why we train (kind of long)

"Peter R." wrote in message
...
| C J Campbell ) wrote:
|
| Easier said than done. When IMC, getting unexpected vectors and maybe a
| hold, you cannot simply cancel and land at the nearest VFR airport for
fuel.
| Stuff happens -- you miss your approach, etc.
|
| I was taught to use the phrase "minimum fuel" if it appeared that holds
| and/or additional vectors might make me concerned about remaining fuel,
| whether it be a set "bingo" reserve or some other amount.
|
| Wouldn't this be preferable to simply accepting the vectors and holds?
|

Even that is no guarantee that you will get priority handling. Other
aircraft emergencies, going missed and trying again, etc., will start to eat
into your fuel reserve. Turbulence can have unexpected consequences, too,
slowing your rate of progress and eating fuel as you change altitudes
looking for better conditions.

Some very popular aircraft, including twins, only hold about 1.5 hours
useable fuel when fully loaded with pax and bags. The Cessna 414 Chancellor
comes to mind. According to Aviation Consumer, that aircraft has the best
safety record (per 100,000 hours) of all piston twins, they are not exactly
falling out of the sky because of fuel exhaustion. It follows that if you
think the 414 is not safe enough because it does not hold enough fuel, then
all other piston twins are not safe enough for you, either, because their
accident rate is worse than that of the 414. Unless, of course, fuel is the
only safety issue that you are concerned about, in which case I wish you
well, but I will not fly with you.

One could avoid piston twins and float planes entirely. Some people do. But
then you have to ask yourself why you are avoiding those aircraft and not
those piston singles that have worse safety records than the 414. There are
plenty of those, including such stalwarts as the Navion, Mooney, and
Ercoupe. The only piston singles that have better safety records than the
414 are basically a handful of Cessnas and Pipers.

"Dennis O'Connor" wrote in message ...
Ya did good when the brown stuff hit the fan , Scott... One attaboy...

Now, let's discuss your fuel... You never, never, never, N E V E R, go below
one hour of fuel in the tanks - period...

Doesn't the Seneca have 180 HP engines?

I woulda thought 20 gallons would be 1 hr of fuel for 2 180 HPs, maybe
a bit more if the plane is kept clean, throttled back and leaned out
a mite.

Now not being a twin driver I can't comment on nicities such how the
fuel should be distributed between tanks.

The final point I make here is that fuel is measured by your watch, NOT by
the fuel gauges... All the gauges are is a cross check against the watch...
The watch rules! Keep flying and play by my rules and you will never
have another story to tell us like that...

Um....with all respect, Dennis, your rule that "the watch rules" would
seem to leave you vulnerable to taking off with less fuel than you think,
and to in-flight fuel loss other than through the engine (has happened
to several here).

Seems to me that the rule ought to be "whichever indicates less fuel,
rules". If the fuel gauge indicates lower than it should, time to
land and investigate ASAP, not look at your watch and smile.

Cheers,
Sydney

Good stuff. Congrats on getting thru it. Thanks for sharing and exposing
yourself to some flak.

Hope you sleep soundly.

"SD" sdatverizondot.net@ wrote in message
...
Well, tonight will go in my book as something that I will never
forget. Tonight I learned a valuable lesson and was able to live to
tell about it. As a lurker here for many years, I have come to enjoy
reading about people's experiences and try to learn from their
mistakes. So tonight I am posting my experience in hopes that someone
else can learn from me.


Thanks, one of the things I have learnt is to never fly a plane whose
avionics you are not proficient with. There was a time when the primary
radio was on the Garmin 430 and I had a tough time with the squelch etc.
Spent half an hour on the ground before I could get it the way I wanted. GPS
equipment appears to be the worst in terms of distraction.

I guessed what happened the moment I read that you had flown through the
localizer. This is becoming a real problem and I am beginning to think that
there is a fundamental design flaw in advanced avionics systems.

I have noticed a tendency for people to forget to switch on the CDI even
when they are very familiar with the GPS. I have done it myself, seen many
students make the same mistake, and heard from a lot of other pilots that
this is a problem. People are more likely to forget things like this when
they are already stressed. I think this should be emphasized when training
with advanced aircraft systems. Perhaps the task should be automated -- dial
in a localizer or ILS, and the CDI automatically switches to NAV. However, I
can envision problems with this approach as well, so to speak. :-)

"C J Campbell" writes:

with advanced aircraft systems. Perhaps the task should be automated -- dial
in a localizer or ILS, and the CDI automatically switches to NAV. However, I
can envision problems with this approach as well, so to speak. :-)

The Garmin units do this if you select an ILS approach (which puts the
localizer frequency into the standby) and remember to flip the
frequency to active. You get GPS guidance through the procedure until
you're inbound and intercepting the final approach course.

Of course, then you have to remember to put it back into GPS mode if
you want missed approach guidance.

I believe this is configurable.

"Dave Katz" wrote in message
...
| "C J Campbell" writes:
|
| with advanced aircraft systems. Perhaps the task should be automated --
dial
| in a localizer or ILS, and the CDI automatically switches to NAV.
However, I
| can envision problems with this approach as well, so to speak. :-)
|
| The Garmin units do this if you select an ILS approach (which puts the
| localizer frequency into the standby) and remember to flip the
| frequency to active. You get GPS guidance through the procedure until
| you're inbound and intercepting the final approach course.
|
| Of course, then you have to remember to put it back into GPS mode if
| you want missed approach guidance.
|
| I believe this is configurable.

Yeah, my GARMIN GNS 430 would do that. Instead of an external NAV/GPS switch
such as you see in most GPS installations, the GARMIN units have the switch
built into the panel. GARMIN can do this because their units are all-in-one
boxes, so it is a simple matter to switch program that in. Even though the
CNX-80 the OP used is also an all-in-one box, it appears that it must be
switched manually.

I have not yet seen a GARMIN 1000 installation, but I understand that it
works more like the GNS-430/-530 units.

C J Campbell wrote:
"Dave Katz" wrote in message
...
| "C J Campbell" writes:
|
| with advanced aircraft systems. Perhaps the task should be automated --
dial
| in a localizer or ILS, and the CDI automatically switches to NAV.
However, I
| can envision problems with this approach as well, so to speak. :-)
|
| The Garmin units do this if you select an ILS approach (which puts the
| localizer frequency into the standby) and remember to flip the
| frequency to active. You get GPS guidance through the procedure until
| you're inbound and intercepting the final approach course.
|
| Of course, then you have to remember to put it back into GPS mode if
| you want missed approach guidance.
|
| I believe this is configurable.

Yeah, my GARMIN GNS 430 would do that. Instead of an external NAV/GPS switch
such as you see in most GPS installations, the GARMIN units have the switch
built into the panel. GARMIN can do this because their units are all-in-one
boxes, so it is a simple matter to switch program that in. Even though the
CNX-80 the OP used is also an all-in-one box, it appears that it must be
switched manually.

I have not yet seen a GARMIN 1000 installation, but I understand that it
works more like the GNS-430/-530 units.



The opposite problem can also happen. The last time I was out
doing practice approaches, I failed to switch the CDI to GPS
mode on a GPS approach until the safety pilot pointed out the
error. The 530 I have always reminds me to switch the CDI
to LOC mode on an ILS approach, but has no reminder to get
it off LOC for a GPS approach when, of course, the CDI is reading
some random VOR or ILS you happen to be tuned to but aren't thinking
about. There are an amazing number of errors you can make with
a GPS, though the moving map is incredibly helpful for spatial
awareness.

--
David Rind

C J Campbell ) wrote:

I have noticed a tendency for people to forget to switch on the CDI even
when they are very familiar with the GPS. I have done it myself, seen many
students make the same mistake, and heard from a lot of other pilots that
this is a problem. People are more likely to forget things like this when
they are already stressed. I think this should be emphasized when training
with advanced aircraft systems. Perhaps the task should be automated -- dial
in a localizer or ILS, and the CDI automatically switches to NAV. However, I
can envision problems with this approach as well, so to speak. :-)

The GPS could flash a message reminding the pilot to switch the CDI when
within 5 miles or so of the localizer, much like some do to remind the
pilot to go to OBS mode when outbound to a procedure turn.

Of course, I suppose the message might be overlooked by the pilot...

--
Peter












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"Peter R." wrote in message
...
| C J Campbell ) wrote:
|
| I have noticed a tendency for people to forget to switch on the CDI even
| when they are very familiar with the GPS. I have done it myself, seen
many
| students make the same mistake, and heard from a lot of other pilots
that
| this is a problem. People are more likely to forget things like this
when
| they are already stressed. I think this should be emphasized when
training
| with advanced aircraft systems. Perhaps the task should be automated --
dial
| in a localizer or ILS, and the CDI automatically switches to NAV.
However, I
| can envision problems with this approach as well, so to speak. :-)
|
| The GPS could flash a message reminding the pilot to switch the CDI when
| within 5 miles or so of the localizer, much like some do to remind the
| pilot to go to OBS mode when outbound to a procedure turn.
|
| Of course, I suppose the message might be overlooked by the pilot...
|

Most of them flash the message when you select the approach procedure, which
IMHO is too early.