Rotax RPMs

On Nov 30, 12:02 pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

Again, it goes back much further than that. Hisso had a lot of success with
their geared version of the 8VA back in '17...

Bertie

Seems to me the Wright Brothers had chain drives on the 1903
Flyer, too. Can't get too much further back than that, unless we
consider some steam-powered attempts in the late 1800s.

Dan

On Nov 30, 3:43 pm, Matt Whiting wrote:
Really?

http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/P-51_Variants.html

Seems like water cooling has been around just a little longer than that.

Matt

Much, much longer than that. Here's a quote from
http://www.allstar.fiu.edu/AERO/Propulsion1.htm

"The problem involving water cooled engines is the excess
drag and weight that would be added to the plane thereby having a
significant influence in aircraft performance. By 1908 this
degradation of aircraft performance due to liquid-cooled systems was
noticed and air-cooled engines were first introduced. The savings in
weight were substantial. The air-cooled engine weight (on average) was
between 30% and 40% of the weight of the liquid-cooled engine."

wrote in
:

On Nov 30, 12:02 pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

Again, it goes back much further than that. Hisso had a lot of
success with their geared version of the 8VA back in '17...

Bertie

Seems to me the Wright Brothers had chain drives on the 1903
Flyer, too. Can't get too much further back than that, unless we
consider some steam-powered attempts in the late 1800s.

Absolutely true!

Come to think of it, it had a water cooled head as well.



Bertie

On Nov 30, 3:54 pm, "Maxwell" wrote:
wrote in message

...



If a Lyc or Continental dies due to carb ice, it isn't going to
restart either. It needs air and fuel to generate heat to get the ice
out, and a pilot who lets things deteriorate until the thing is dead
is faced with a forced landing whether it's a direct-drive engine or a
geared engine.

Not true, been there and done it.

There's a shroud around some part of the exhaust system, and air
is forced through it to accumulate heat from the hot exhaust. If the
throttle is closed or nearly so and the aircraft is gliding, the
exhaust system cools off quickly because it's made from very light
material of little mass and large area. If ice forms in the carb, less
fuel and air reach the cylinders, things cool off more, and soon
enough, if the pilot isn't paying attention or doesn't understand,
it's all over.
There have been numerous accidents because the engine began to
lose power so carb heat was applied, it ran rougher so the pilots shut
the heat off, and after the thing died altogether they pulled the heat
on again but it was too late. It reflects a lack of training: the
engine will run rougher both because the mixture gets richer and it's
getting liquid water into the cylinders, which tends to annoy it some.
Applying the heat and leave it until the thing sorts itself out is the
only solution. And go to a higher power setting; partial power might
just get more ice forming. There have been cases where the throttle
froze solid and would not move.
Lycomings have the carb bolted to the oil sump and the hot
oil warms the carb body so that the carb heat system around the
exhaust is really small. In cooler weather the oil may not do the job
and ice will form, especially early in the flight when the oil isn't
too hot. Continentals don't have the carb bolted to such warm stuff
and they'll ice up much quicker.

Dan

Bertie the Bunyip schrieb:

Seems to me the Wright Brothers had chain drives on the 1903
Flyer

Come to think of it, it had a water cooled head as well.

But it wasn't exactly reliable...

Stefan wrote in news:44133$47513f2d$d9a270c7
:

Bertie the Bunyip schrieb:

Seems to me the Wright Brothers had chain drives on the 1903
Flyer

Come to think of it, it had a water cooled head as well.

But it wasn't exactly reliable...


Sure it was. It did the job it was asked to do. That's the defintion of
reliable.



Bertie

wrote:
On Nov 30, 3:43 pm, Matt Whiting wrote:
Really?

http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/P-51_Variants.html

Seems like water cooling has been around just a little longer than that.

Matt

Much, much longer than that. Here's a quote from
http://www.allstar.fiu.edu/AERO/Propulsion1.htm

"The problem involving water cooled engines is the excess
drag and weight that would be added to the plane thereby having a
significant influence in aircraft performance. By 1908 this
degradation of aircraft performance due to liquid-cooled systems was
noticed and air-cooled engines were first introduced. The savings in
weight were substantial. The air-cooled engine weight (on average) was
between 30% and 40% of the weight of the liquid-cooled engine."

So who wants to buy a Rotax with early 1900s technology when you can
have the newer air cooled technology! :-)

Matt

wrote in message
...


There's a shroud around some part of the exhaust system, and air
is forced through it to accumulate heat from the hot exhaust. If the
throttle is closed or nearly so and the aircraft is gliding, the
exhaust system cools off quickly because it's made from very light
material of little mass and large area. If ice forms in the carb, less
fuel and air reach the cylinders, things cool off more, and soon
enough, if the pilot isn't paying attention or doesn't understand,
it's all over.
There have been numerous accidents because the engine began to
lose power so carb heat was applied, it ran rougher so the pilots shut
the heat off, and after the thing died altogether they pulled the heat
on again but it was too late. It reflects a lack of training: the
engine will run rougher both because the mixture gets richer and it's
getting liquid water into the cylinders, which tends to annoy it some.
Applying the heat and leave it until the thing sorts itself out is the
only solution. And go to a higher power setting; partial power might
just get more ice forming. There have been cases where the throttle
froze solid and would not move.
Lycomings have the carb bolted to the oil sump and the hot
oil warms the carb body so that the carb heat system around the
exhaust is really small. In cooler weather the oil may not do the job
and ice will form, especially early in the flight when the oil isn't
too hot. Continentals don't have the carb bolted to such warm stuff
and they'll ice up much quicker.


I don't care if you write a novel and include cad drawing. It's still not
true. YMMV

On Dec 1, 7:58 am, "Maxwell" wrote:

I don't care if you write a novel and include cad drawing. It's still not
true. YMMV

Maybe you should argue with historical fact instead of novels
or CAD drawings. Might learn something. Here's just one example
from http://www.aopa.org/asf/ntsb/searchResults.cfm?tss=14

MIA07LA028

Narrative Type: NTSB FINAL NARRATIVE (6120.4)
The pilot stated that a few minutes after departing, while at 1,000
feet over the city of Cape Coral, Florida, he said he set the throttle
to a cruise RPM of 2300, and within about a half minute the engine
RPMs dropped to idle RPM. He said he activated the carburetor heat
control and a few minutes later the engine ceased operating. He said
he attempted to restart the engine, but it would not start, so he made
a forced landing on the northbound lanes of a 4-laned street. During
the landing rollout the right wing struck two road signs and the
airplane veered, incurring damage. The 0630, Fort Myers (FMY),
Florida, surface weather observation showed that the visibility was 1
and 3/4 statute miles, and the ceiling as 600 overcast. FAA records
showed that the private-rated pilot/owner of the accident airplane did
not possess an instrument rating. An FAA maintenance inspector
responded to the accident scene, removed the engine cowling, and
conducted an examination of the airplane. No anomalies were noted. In
addition an FAA licensed mechanic conducted a detailed engine
examination under FAA supervision, and no anomalies were noted. Review
of carburetor icing probability charts show that at the time of the
engine failure the flight was operating in conditions conductive to
moderate icing during cruise power settings and serious icing during
glide/descent power settings.

Dan

wrote in message
...
On Dec 1, 7:58 am, "Maxwell" wrote:

I don't care if you write a novel and include cad drawing. It's still not
true. YMMV

Maybe you should argue with historical fact instead of novels
or CAD drawings. Might learn something. Here's just one example
from http://www.aopa.org/asf/ntsb/searchResults.cfm?tss=14

MIA07LA028

Narrative Type: NTSB FINAL NARRATIVE (6120.4)
The pilot stated that a few minutes after departing, while at 1,000
snip-

I don't need to research anything Dan, I told you I have experienced it
personally on more than one occasion and found your statement to be false.
Especially in the context that you initially offered it.

Just because your engine has failed completely, and due only to carb ice,
doesn't mean you can't save you bacon with carb heat. Furthermore, a
windmilling engine can be very helpful in supplying the time (and
circulation) required to do so without having to rely on the battery or
starter.

Can I assure everyone that they will ALWAYS be able to clear a frozen carb
with just carb heaT? Hell no. But that has zero to do with the disussion,
WINDMILLING.