Tow banner on a PP license

I have a friend that is purchasing a plane and will start a business
of tow banner. He said I could fly the plane for him without been paid
, this way I can get many hours on my logbook.

Is it legal to do banner towing on a PP license without receiving
payment for it?

Victor wrote:

I have a friend that is purchasing a plane and will start a business
of tow banner. He said I could fly the plane for him without been paid
, this way I can get many hours on my logbook.

Is it legal to do banner towing on a PP license without receiving
payment for it?

No.

George Patterson
Treason is ne'er successful, Sir; what then be the reason? Why, if treason
be successful, Sir, then none dare call it treason.

"G.R. Patterson III" wrote:

Is it legal to do banner towing on a PP license without receiving
payment for it?

No.

"No" is correct with underlying assumptions, all of which
are likely to be true, like - the operator is charging for
the banner tows, the pilot is not paying for the plane and
fuel, etc. But he could legally tow his own banner in a
plane he rents or owns, so, in a technical sense, the
answer to his question, read carefully, is "yes, in some
very limited circumstances."

Todd Pattist
(Remove DONTSPAMME from address to email reply.)
___
Make a commitment to learn something from every flight.
Share what you learn.

In a previous article, (Victor) said:
I have a friend that is purchasing a plane and will start a business
of tow banner. He said I could fly the plane for him without been paid
, this way I can get many hours on my logbook.

Is it legal to do banner towing on a PP license without receiving
payment for it?

"hours in my logbook" *is* payment, according to FAA prosecutions of
people doing something similar (glider towing is the case I remember most
clearly).

--
Paul Tomblin http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
When the revolution comes, we'll need a longer wall.
-- Tom De Mulder

"Victor" wrote in message
om...
I have a friend that is purchasing a plane and will start a business
of tow banner. He said I could fly the plane for him without been paid
, this way I can get many hours on my logbook.

Is it legal to do banner towing on a PP license without receiving
payment for it?
From what I've read, banner towing is very dangerous. There are several
operators at LWM in MA, and I remember a pilot getting killed a few years
ago while picking up a banner. It's exhausting work because you are alway
flying on the edge of a stall and need to talk to the other banner planes in
the area for coordination. When I looked into that work, they wanted at
least 500 hours.

Todd Pattist wrote
But he could legally tow his own banner in a
plane he rents or owns

Not unless he gets a waiver from the FSDO.

91.311 Towing: Other than under §91.309.
No pilot of a civil aircraft may tow anything with that aircraft
(other than
under §91.309) except in accordance with the terms of a certificate of
waiver
issued by the Administrator.

No FSDO I know of will issue a banner tow waiver to a pilot who lacks
a commercial certificate, so the point is moot.

Michael

Victor wrote:

I have a friend that is purchasing a plane and will start a business
of tow banner. He said I could fly the plane for him without been paid
, this way I can get many hours on my logbook.

Is it legal to do banner towing on a PP license without receiving
payment for it?

No. First of all you need a waiver by the FAA before you can tow anything
around, but your mother-in-law in the back seat.

Second, your "friend" is taking somebody's money in consideration of
flying a banner. This alone makes it a commercial operation, whether or
not the pilot is being paid in cash.

Third, even if your "friend" was not taking somebody's money for the
flight, as a PP, the pilot would need to share expenses evenly for the
flight AND have a commonality of purpose.

As an aside, I would note that banner towing is one of the more hazardous
jobs in flying airplanes. It does not have a stellar safety record, and
is not something I would do casually.

"William W. Plummer" wrote in message
news:041ac.28579$gA5.396231@attbi_s03...

"Victor" wrote in message
om...
I have a friend that is purchasing a plane and will start a business
of tow banner. He said I could fly the plane for him without been paid
, this way I can get many hours on my logbook.

Is it legal to do banner towing on a PP license without receiving
payment for it?
From what I've read, banner towing is very dangerous. There are several
operators at LWM in MA, and I remember a pilot getting killed a few years
ago while picking up a banner. It's exhausting work because you are alway
flying on the edge of a stall and need to talk to the other banner planes in
the area for coordination. When I looked into that work, they wanted at
least 500 hours.

Well, I wouldn't call it VERY dangerous, but it is more hazardous than Sunday
morning coffee runs. Unless you fly those in a 60 year old airplane at 300'
while on the edge of a stall, day in and day out :-)

I've spent a few seasons towing in Jersey, and for one, I would NOT be doing it
for free! Aside from it not being legal (see previous posts), you have the
problem of getting on his waiver. You see, once your friend get's a waiver from
the FAA saying his company can tow, every one of his pilots has to have a
checkride with the feds before they're allowed to work for him. I know of only
one person who is on a banner tow waiver with a private, and he was the owner of
said company.

And remember, in additon to flying low and slow all day, day in and day out,
pickups aren't exactly the most natural thing to get used to as well. We'd dive
at the ground at about a 30-40 degree dive (Cubs are DRAGGY airplanes) to get
the required airspeed, and smoothly pull out at the right time, around 10-15'
AGL to snag the banner with our tow hook. Transitioning to a steep zoom climb
(40-50 degrees nose up) and leveling off at 200-300' AGL almost at stall.

In the two summers I worked for this company, I saw 6 accidents of varying
severity, from taxiing mistakes (12 hour days are a LONG time to be in a Cub,
and mistakes happen towards the end) to planes being flipped on their back, no
fatals or serious injuries thank god. That was just at our company. There were
another few others at other companys, one crashing on takeoff and fireballing
(80 gallons of avgas in a Super Cub stalling on climbout is NOT a good
combination)

Don't get me wrong, it was a fun job and I loved every minute of it. But I
wouldn't want to go back and try it again at 100TT, I probibly wouldn't have
survived it.

--
Mike
(and, yes, I plan on going back for a 3rd season)

"Michael" wrote in message
om...

No FSDO I know of will issue a banner tow waiver to a pilot who lacks
a commercial certificate, so the point is moot.

What criteria do they use? There's nothing in the FARs about
needing a commercial cert. Sounds like they are denying freedom
of speech. Why can't private pilots tow their own messages
around if they want to? (Playing devil's advocate here).

(Paul Tomblin) wrote in message ...
In a previous article, (Victor) said:
I have a friend that is purchasing a plane and will start a business
of tow banner. He said I could fly the plane for him without been paid
, this way I can get many hours on my logbook.

Is it legal to do banner towing on a PP license without receiving
payment for it?

"hours in my logbook" *is* payment, according to FAA prosecutions of
people doing something similar (glider towing is the case I remember most
clearly).

What if you don't log the flights?