Avgas in France has reached $7.50/gal !

So, to summarize: Yes, there is fewer GA in Europe. But even if you would
wipe all avgas taxes, there wouldn't be more.

You admit that predatory taxation has added 25% to the cost of GA in France
(which is a gross under-estimation, BTW) -- and in the same breath say that
it has NO impact on it?


That is the most absurd assertion I've seen in Usenet -- and I've seen some
whoppers over the years.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"Jay Honeck" wrote

You'll get no argument from me on this one, Stefan.

We do, indeed, have the most dunderheaded legal system ever devised by
man.

Hmmm. Dunderheaded, BIG time, but worst of all? I don't know about that.
--
Jim in NC

I can't remember the last time I saw kids ( 14 yo) playing pick up
anything.
Seriously. I assume they're exhausted from all the organized activities.

Sadly, that's very true. I was just talking about this with my 14 year old
son tonight, while we were playing (American) football (just catch, really)
out in the back yard.

When I was a kid, at the height of the baby boom, my neighborhood was FULL
of kids my age. I mean, it was a riot every night, with kids running wild
every which way. We played every possible sport, and always had full-sized
teams.

Now, the nearest kid my son's age lives several blocks away. I really feel
for the kid, cuz there just isn't any opportunity for him to play a pick-up
game of ANYTHING -- soccer, baseball, football, it doesn't matter.

Yet another reason kids are addicted to video games -- they can be played
alone. It's sad.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"Wolfgang Schwanke" wrote


You can't shut down the whole country for fear of bombing.

You can't? We sure did!
--
Jim (tongue only slightly in cheek) in NC

"Peter" wrote

According to the news report on the brake rotors they come from the
consortium of Canada's Bombardier and France's Alstom.

Ahhh, by the fine folks that bring you
Rotax. I rest my case.
--
Jim in NC

G Farris wrote:

It's amazing how prejudices and misinformation fly.

I read an article by a French guy - supposed to be a world-famous schol=
ar -
about cultural differences between French and Americans. He said (I
paraphrase) "France is basically an agricultural society, so French und=
erstand
that it can't rain every day, and that a good year is likely to be foll=
owed by
a poorer year, hence their conservatism - Americans slaughtered the I=
ndians
and that explains everything you need to know about them".

Many French really believe that blacks are not admitted to US hospitals=
, and
if you check in with ten bullets in the chest, but don't have cash to =
pay
they throw you back out in the alley to bleed. At the same time, they w=
ill
tell you their health care is "free" - they don't seem to worry about t=
he fact
that a flat-rate 21% comes off every paycheck - even the poorest - to p=
ay for
it and it's still running up colossal deficits.

For all of these differences, flying in France is not that different fr=
om the
US - except for the fuel price, that is. For the recreational and VFR p=
ilot,
most of France is class "G" - below 11500ft - above this it is "D", and=

they'll never let you in under VFR. But stay below that and you go pret=
ty much
where you want. Airspace restrictions require you to call for clearance=
s
pretty often - but I've never had a request refused, and this keeps you=
in
contact almost constantly with someone or other - because information s=
ervices
(particularly weather reporting) are poor to non-existant. Once you get=
into
IFR and commercial operations costs are much higher than in the US, and=
there
are a lot of regulations. Only about 15% of PPL's in France are IFR rat=
ed,
against roughly 50% in the US. Typical cost for an IR rating is $20K (f=
rom
PPL). Night flying is not included in the standard PPL, and requires a =
logbook
endorsement - there are special routes to follow, usually related to no=
ise
abatement. Rental rates reflect the high fuel cost, but they include a =
sort of
"nationalized" insurance which I understand is not bad (never had to us=
e it).
Landing and parking fees are ubiquitous, but moderate. A $100 hamburger=

becomes a $200 Cote de Boeuf. The country is very beautiful, and despit=
e its
rather small size contains an astonishing wealth and variety of differe=
nt
conditions - from blue/green seacoast to mountains higher than any in t=
he US,
to vinyards and vast farmlands, gorges and valleys. Weather in the nort=
h is a
bit of a problem

Yes, France is very beautiful country. But what French mountain is high=
er then
6194 metres?

- through nine months of the year VFR conditions are the
exception, which makes basic VFR training longer and more expensive tha=
n in
Florida or California. Private airplane use for transportation is much =
less
common than in the US, but this is not only due to the cost, but to the=
fact
that other forms of transportation are much more developed. It's hard t=
o
justify a 180nm business trip from Paris to Poitiers, in any plane, whe=
n the
train has you there in 90 minutes flat, and it's $80 round trip.

French trains are very nice, but they don't always go where you want to g=
o, and
they get very expensive when you are moving a family around often. Then =
there's
the p=E9ages (a French word roughly translated means "bend over") on the
autoroutes. France gets accused of being socialist, but it's interesting=
that
it's autoroute system has largely been privatized (unlike the USA), and
privatization and socialism go together like water and avgas.

Jay Honeck wrote:
Decimated since when? Post a reference statistic and time as a starting
point.

Well, let's start with the fact that France's efforts at flight pre-date our
own. Is 1903-ish far enough back for you?

No, I requested figures, not dates. You've shown no numbers to indicate
the size of aviation before it was "decimated," (which means, in the
dictionary, that one in ten has been done away with.) How many planes,
pilots, airfields or any other topic you want to use, were there before
it was decimated? How do you know aviation is any smaller than it ever
was?

What taxes particularly are you referring to?

Avgas taxes. The price of avgas in France (as the subject of this thread
states) has now exceeded $7.50 per gallon, solely as a result of their very
aggressive tax policies.


What was the price before, and how much were the taxes?

Where does France get its processed petroleum products and what factors
make the cost of avgas what it is?

I presume that they get their petroleum from the same worldwide supply

We get gasoline and avgas in the US from refineries in this country. One
blows up and the price goes up a dime a gallon. Texas refineries don't
send avgas back aross the ocean, it must be refined in that region. The
world crude-oil market notwithstanding, their operations and volume and
costs and other factors in France determine what REFINED petroleum costs
are there.
Gasoline in European countries has been several times the cost in the US
for decades.
So why are you under the impression it's gone up some time in the recent
past?

Heck, I'd be quite willing to agree with you, if you started this out
with facts. Verifiable data is convincing, baseless opinion is not.
Lacking facts, you could be perfectly opposite reality about everything.
Get some solid data, or you're just building a brick wall without the
bricks.

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:OGT9e.5851$r53.2488@attbi_s21...
What is going to happen
to cigarette smoking in Iowa if (when?) the legislature double the tax
on
a
pack of smokes

Iowa smokers will purchase out of state.

The aviation parallel, of course, is simply to witness how many
foreign-born
pilots come to America to train -- to escape predatory taxation.

[snip]

Social engineering through taxation -- even well-meaning efforts -- almost
always seems to have unforeseen consequences.

Much more than most people realize, or even more than they could possibly
conceive.

http://washingtontimes.com/commentar...5314-5313r.htm

"Roger" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 20:03:58 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
wrote:
snip
Social engineering through taxation -- even well-meaning efforts --
almost
always seems to have unforeseen consequences.
You mean something like prohibition? It created a great market for
the mobs back then.

Prohibition had noting to do with taxes. It did, though, create a thriving
black market and the highest crime rates in US history. It's counterpart is
the modern "drug war", an it's created a great market for the modern day
gangs in that market niche. Another up and comer is the prescription drugs
coming from Mexico and Canada.

"Crisis mongering" is an apt description.


Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

"Wolfgang Schwanke" wrote in message
...
"Jay Honeck" wrote in
news:9IT9e.5855$r53.47@attbi_s21:

High speed (180 mph) European trains are preferable to airline
transportation within Europe. No security lines nor baggage waiting,

That's interesting.

You would think after the train bombings in Spain, there would be as
much -- or more -- security efforts expended on them?

You can't shut down the whole country for fear of bombing.


But you can in response to one.

Look at how Germany imposed restrictions over the years in response to the
Bader-Meinhof violence of the 70's.


--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO