Is TSO Required for Certified Glider Communications Radio?

What are the FAA regulations regarding installing a communications
radio in a certified glider. I have had many opinions expressed and
would appreciate any definitive answers with references to the
appropriate regulations.

On Mar 21, 7:12*pm, sky wrote:
What are the FAA regulations regarding installing a communications
radio in a certified glider. *I have had many opinions expressed and
would appreciate any definitive answers with references to the
appropriate regulations.

Part 43 requires an A&P to at a minimum sign off the installation,
maybe do a 337. I believe there is no actual requirement to have a TSO
radio. However your A&P/avionics shop may disagree. They may require
the radio be TSO'ed to feel comfortable about complying with the
language in part 43.13 and maybe elsewhere. If you disagree with their
position you should ask that person to explain why they believe what
the radio must be TSO'ed. You likely are getting many options
expressed because different people interpret part 43 requirements in
different ways, and in some cases may be dealing with local FSDO
preferences for 337 paperwork which might further encourage caution on
the part of the A&P. I would find a competent A&P you trust and follow
the requirements/procedures they recommended.

Darryl

On Mar 22, 3:05*am, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Mar 21, 7:12*pm, sky wrote:

What are the FAA regulations regarding installing a communications
radio in a certified glider. *I have had many opinions expressed and
would appreciate any definitive answers with references to the
appropriate regulations.

Part 43 requires an A&P to at a minimum sign off the installation,
maybe do a 337. I believe there is no actual requirement to have a TSO
radio. However your A&P/avionics shop may disagree. They may require
the radio be TSO'ed to feel comfortable about complying with the
language in part 43.13 and maybe elsewhere. If you disagree with their
position you should ask that person to explain why they believe what
the radio must be TSO'ed. You likely are getting many options
expressed because different people interpret part 43 requirements in
different ways, and in some cases may be dealing with local FSDO
preferences for 337 paperwork which might further encourage caution on
the part of the A&P. I would find a competent A&P you trust and follow
the requirements/procedures they recommended.

Darryl

The shop where I work just installed an non TSO radio in a glider. I
asked the avionics "guru" (my boss) about it. He said there is no
problem at all. Just paperwork issues. He has a great rapport with
the FSDO so never any paperwork problems. Basically the installation
requires a 337 and "field approval". He said somthing about providing
"approved data" which can be as simple as the install manual.


Cookie

On Mar 22, 4:56*am, "
wrote:
On Mar 22, 3:05*am, Darryl Ramm wrote:





On Mar 21, 7:12*pm, sky wrote:

What are the FAA regulations regarding installing a communications
radio in a certified glider. *I have had many opinions expressed and
would appreciate any definitive answers with references to the
appropriate regulations.

Part 43 requires an A&P to at a minimum sign off the installation,
maybe do a 337. I believe there is no actual requirement to have a TSO
radio. However your A&P/avionics shop may disagree. They may require
the radio be TSO'ed to feel comfortable about complying with the
language in part 43.13 and maybe elsewhere. If you disagree with their
position you should ask that person to explain why they believe what
the radio must be TSO'ed. You likely are getting many options
expressed because different people interpret part 43 requirements in
different ways, and in some cases may be dealing with local FSDO
preferences for 337 paperwork which might further encourage caution on
the part of the A&P. I would find a competent A&P you trust and follow
the requirements/procedures they recommended.

Darryl

The shop where I work just installed an non TSO radio in a glider. *I
asked the avionics "guru" (my boss) about it. *He said there is no
problem at all. *Just paperwork issues. *He has a great rapport with
the FSDO so never any paperwork problems. *Basically the installation
requires a 337 and "field approval". *He said somthing about providing
"approved data" which can be as simple as the install manual.

Cookie- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Handheld radios that are frequently used in club gliders like the
2-33's are also not TSO'd either.

I think the issue with a radio in a glider is more about the
installation being approved rather than the
radio device itself since many gliders do not have a radio listed on
the minimum required instrumentation list.

Just follow what the A&P that does your annual says or get one that
agrees with your interpretation, just so long
as it gets signed off and you are covered.

If the rules are vague and open to interpretation then the FAA will
have to revise them if they expect a particular result
and are not getting it.

Ray

Here are some questions that help clarify the answers to this issue:
(as annoying as this can be)

1) Is a radio "required" equipment for a day-VFR flight?
(which covers 99.99% of all Glider flying; at least in the USA)

2) How is the glider in question certified (standard vs.
experimental)?

What do the FARs say about items #1 and #2 above? More importantly,
what do they _not_ say about radios?
(Hint: see 91.205, the sections of Part 91 that apply to the airspace
you expect to fly in/through, and Part 43).

--Noel
P.S. Don't forget this "gotcha": Your weight and balance is
technically affected by instrument changes in the cockpit. See the
FARs about how you can re-calculate your W&B based on an "equipment
list" and the instrument location (i.e. Arm or Datum point).
Insurance companies or FAA inspectors may not look kindly on an
incorrect equipment list or a W&B that doesn't take new items - like
radios - into account.

"noel.wade" wrote in message
...
Here are some questions that help clarify the answers to this issue:
(as annoying as this can be)

1) Is a radio "required" equipment for a day-VFR flight?
(which covers 99.99% of all Glider flying; at least in the USA)

2) How is the glider in question certified (standard vs.
experimental)?

What do the FARs say about items #1 and #2 above? More importantly,
what do they _not_ say about radios?
(Hint: see 91.205, the sections of Part 91 that apply to the airspace
you expect to fly in/through, and Part 43).

--Noel
P.S. Don't forget this "gotcha": Your weight and balance is
technically affected by instrument changes in the cockpit. See the
FARs about how you can re-calculate your W&B based on an "equipment
list" and the instrument location (i.e. Arm or Datum point).
Insurance companies or FAA inspectors may not look kindly on an
incorrect equipment list or a W&B that doesn't take new items - like
radios - into account.


Just a reminder---
The FAA and the FCC have someting to say about this. Many radios that were
found in gliders a few years ago are no longer legal for the FCC. Has to do
with channel separation and stability. I don't recall the details anymore,
but be wary of 360 channel radios and old radios.

Hartley Falbaum

On Mar 22, 1:03*pm, "HL Falbaum" wrote:
"noel.wade" wrote in message

...



Here are some questions that help clarify the answers to this issue:
(as annoying as this can be)

1) Is a radio "required" equipment for a day-VFR flight?
(which covers 99.99% of all Glider flying; at least in the USA)

2) How is the glider in question certified (standard vs.
experimental)?

What do the FARs say about items #1 and #2 above? *More importantly,
what do they _not_ say about radios?
(Hint: see 91.205, the sections of Part 91 that apply to the airspace
you expect to fly in/through, and Part 43).

--Noel
P.S. *Don't forget this "gotcha": *Your weight and balance is
technically affected by instrument changes in the cockpit. *See the
FARs about how you can re-calculate your W&B based on an "equipment
list" and the instrument location (i.e. Arm or Datum point).
Insurance companies or FAA inspectors may not look kindly on an
incorrect equipment list or a W&B that doesn't take new items - like
radios - into account.

Just a reminder---
The FAA and the FCC have someting to say about this. Many radios that were
found in gliders a few years ago are no longer legal for the FCC. Has to do
with channel separation and stability. I don't recall the details anymore,
but be wary of 360 channel radios and old radios.

Hartley Falbaum

The 360 channel radio issue is very old news and since the aircraft
under discussion is type certificated a A&P/radio shop will not
install some old junker 360 channel radio. The radios that replaced
the old 360 channel radios have 720 channel/25 KHz spacing. That is
what most of us fly with now.

However this does raise potential confusion since there is another
change kicking around in VHF radio specifications to 8.33 KHz channel
spacing. With changes in Europe and elsewhere to this 8KHz spacing
(required above certain flight levels) you are starting to see
affordable radios appear with this spacing capability. The upcoming
Becker AR 6201 that replaces the 4201 is an example of that, with
selectable 8/25kHz spacing. But no we relay don't need to worry about
this in the USA. Still if I was in the market I'd be trying to wait
for the AR 6201 (for other reasons than 8kHz capability, like dual
frequency monitoring, compact size, etc.).

As for FCC "equipment authorization" go to
http://www.fcc.gov/oet/ea/fccid/ and for example type in B54, the code
for Becker avionics, to see all the FCC approved devices.

Darryl

On Mar 22, 11:30*am, "noel.wade" wrote:
Here are some questions that help clarify the answers to this issue:
(as annoying as this can be)

1) Is a radio "required" equipment for a day-VFR flight?
(which covers 99.99% of all Glider flying; at least in the USA)

2) How is the glider in question certified (standard vs.
experimental)?

What do the FARs say about items #1 and #2 above? *More importantly,
what do they _not_ say about radios?
(Hint: see 91.205, the sections of Part 91 that apply to the airspace
you expect to fly in/through, and Part 43).

--Noel
P.S. *Don't forget this "gotcha": *Your weight and balance is
technically affected by instrument changes in the cockpit. *See the
FARs about how you can re-calculate your W&B based on an "equipment
list" and the instrument location (i.e. Arm or Datum point).
Insurance companies or FAA inspectors may not look kindly on an
incorrect equipment list or a W&B that doesn't take new items - like
radios - into account.

All,

Thanks for the responses. To be clear, the radio would be a new 760
channel aircraft like the Microair 760 -approved by the FCC but not
TSOed.. The glider is certified standard. I know handhelds do not
require FAA approval but do require FCC approval and no one has ever
suggested that using them for communications during flight is not
legal. I understand the need that the installation be signed off by a
FAA licensed mechanic to insure it is wired safely, mounted securely,
and W&B updated but otherwise I do not understand why TSO
certification should be required as the radio is not part of a minimum
equipment list.

Why wait? - you can get an ATR833 from Funkwerk (Filser)with 8khz
spacing right now. Dual channel works well - not overly expensive - been
on the market a year already.

For 25khz spacing the ATR500 is affordable (40% less than an 833), and
has pretty much the same features. Very low current draw, works to low
voltage etc. Very popular radio in this part of the world.

Bruce



Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Mar 22, 1:03 pm, "HL Falbaum" wrote:
"noel.wade" wrote in message

...



Here are some questions that help clarify the answers to this issue:
(as annoying as this can be)
1) Is a radio "required" equipment for a day-VFR flight?
(which covers 99.99% of all Glider flying; at least in the USA)
2) How is the glider in question certified (standard vs.
experimental)?
What do the FARs say about items #1 and #2 above? More importantly,
what do they _not_ say about radios?
(Hint: see 91.205, the sections of Part 91 that apply to the airspace
you expect to fly in/through, and Part 43).
--Noel
P.S. Don't forget this "gotcha": Your weight and balance is
technically affected by instrument changes in the cockpit. See the
FARs about how you can re-calculate your W&B based on an "equipment
list" and the instrument location (i.e. Arm or Datum point).
Insurance companies or FAA inspectors may not look kindly on an
incorrect equipment list or a W&B that doesn't take new items - like
radios - into account.
Just a reminder---
The FAA and the FCC have someting to say about this. Many radios that were
found in gliders a few years ago are no longer legal for the FCC. Has to do
with channel separation and stability. I don't recall the details anymore,
but be wary of 360 channel radios and old radios.

Hartley Falbaum

The 360 channel radio issue is very old news and since the aircraft
under discussion is type certificated a A&P/radio shop will not
install some old junker 360 channel radio. The radios that replaced
the old 360 channel radios have 720 channel/25 KHz spacing. That is
what most of us fly with now.

However this does raise potential confusion since there is another
change kicking around in VHF radio specifications to 8.33 KHz channel
spacing. With changes in Europe and elsewhere to this 8KHz spacing
(required above certain flight levels) you are starting to see
affordable radios appear with this spacing capability. The upcoming
Becker AR 6201 that replaces the 4201 is an example of that, with
selectable 8/25kHz spacing. But no we relay don't need to worry about
this in the USA. Still if I was in the market I'd be trying to wait
for the AR 6201 (for other reasons than 8kHz capability, like dual
frequency monitoring, compact size, etc.).

As for FCC "equipment authorization" go to
http://www.fcc.gov/oet/ea/fccid/ and for example type in B54, the code
for Becker avionics, to see all the FCC approved devices.

Darryl


--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---

I installed one of Tim's factory refurbished Microairs last month. I
am loving it. Like you, I did all of this research and as an A & P I
said why not? The microair beats my might fine Vertex handheld all
day long. I especially enjoy the remote frequency select button on
the control stick and the dual frequency monitor features.

XF