A tragedy - a Minden death today!

John Sinclair wrote:
I see the Carat comes with cabin heat. These systems
typically send engine exhaust through a heat exchanger
that heats the cabin air. A crack or leak in this system
can result in exhaust fumes in the cockpit. I would
expect the cabin heat to be in use on this wave flight.
This scenario would square with the apparent total
loss of control while still under full power. Food
for thought.

This is a beautiful sport, but not without its dangers.
My condolences to Alan Pratt's family and friends.
JJ Sinclair



CO poisoning is easy to test for and would show up in the PM.

Shawn

"John Sinclair" wrote in message
...
I see the Carat comes with cabin heat. These systems
typically send engine exhaust through a heat exchanger
that heats the cabin air. A crack or leak in this system
can result in exhaust fumes in the cockpit. I would
expect the cabin heat to be in use on this wave flight.
This scenario would square with the apparent total
loss of control while still under full power. Food
for thought.

This is a beautiful sport, but not without its dangers.
My condolences to Alan Pratt's family and friends.
JJ Sinclair


Heating a cockpit with an exhaust muff is one of the dumbest ideas in the
history of aviation. All recips can benefit from an oil cooler so why not
heat the cabin with hot oil?

Bill Daniels

Except two strokes perhaps.Point taken though.

The only problem is that you need to be able to turn cabin heat off and on
so that would involve high pressure, high reliability valves, two expensive
radiators and high pressure tubing. Perhaps a closed circuit heat exchanger
to a water filled system would work. Now you've added perhaps 3 - 4 kg of
radiator and tubing plus another 4 or 5 litres of water. Hmm, one can see
why the exhaust muff got in there in the first place.

Ian

"Bill Daniels" wrote in message
news:9rjfd.315606$D%.36715@attbi_s51...

"John Sinclair" wrote in message
...
I see the Carat comes with cabin heat. These systems
typically send engine exhaust through a heat exchanger
that heats the cabin air. A crack or leak in this system
can result in exhaust fumes in the cockpit. I would
expect the cabin heat to be in use on this wave flight.
This scenario would square with the apparent total
loss of control while still under full power. Food
for thought.

This is a beautiful sport, but not without its dangers.
My condolences to Alan Pratt's family and friends.
JJ Sinclair


Heating a cockpit with an exhaust muff is one of the dumbest ideas in the
history of aviation. All recips can benefit from an oil cooler so why not
heat the cabin with hot oil?

Bill Daniels

Uses Discus wings. Pretty slick concept. I don't understand the lack
of O2 and 'chute-if accurate news.

My condolences to friends and family.

Shawn

I wonder in the Carat wings were checked along with the other Discus
wings (or was it only Duo's with the problems)?

Clinton
LAK 12

tango4 wrote:

The only problem is that you need to be able to turn cabin heat off and on
so that would involve high pressure, high reliability valves, two expensive
radiators and high pressure tubing. Perhaps a closed circuit heat exchanger
to a water filled system would work. Now you've added perhaps 3 - 4 kg of
radiator and tubing plus another 4 or 5 litres of water. Hmm, one can see
why the exhaust muff got in there in the first place.

The exhaust muff systems don't control the source of heat, they control
the proportion of heated air entering the cockpit. Oil heated systems
would/could use almost exactly the same plumbing and controls.

I think the main objection would be to having a permanent faint whiff of
oil in the cabin air.

Graeme Cant


Ian

"Bill Daniels" wrote in message
news:9rjfd.315606$D%.36715@attbi_s51...

"John Sinclair" wrote in message
...

I see the Carat comes with cabin heat. These systems
typically send engine exhaust through a heat exchanger
that heats the cabin air. A crack or leak in this system
can result in exhaust fumes in the cockpit. I would
expect the cabin heat to be in use on this wave flight.
This scenario would square with the apparent total
loss of control while still under full power. Food
for thought.

This is a beautiful sport, but not without its dangers.
My condolences to Alan Pratt's family and friends.
JJ Sinclair



Heating a cockpit with an exhaust muff is one of the dumbest ideas in the
history of aviation. All recips can benefit from an oil cooler so why not
heat the cabin with hot oil?

Bill Daniels

I met Allan only about two months ago, but his infectious good humor
and general manner of being immediately made him a valued friend. We
flew together in my two place ship just a month ago and had a great
time. The call Saturday afternoon telling me of his death was a real
shock. One minute he's here, the next he's gone.

Understandably, there has been some speculation on the cause of this
tragedy, and at a personal level, it's almost impossible to stop. But,
out of respect for Allan as well as the truth, I would encourage us to
wait for the NTSB report. Allan was an ATP who flew for a major
airline for many years and did not impress me as one to take safety
lightly.

When accidents happen there's a natural human tendency to try and find
something that the other guy did wrong so we can convince ourselves
that "it couldn't happen to me." I'd encourage instead that we try to
find any parallels between whatever might have caused this accident
(even if it didn't) and our own thinking. That way, maybe Allan's
death can help save someone else.

On parachutes for example: When I first got into mountain soaring in
1994, I debated whether or not to get parachutes. On the one hand,
they were a huge plus if you had to bail out. That's a no brainer. But
I also had heard stories where the extra decision step -- "should I
bail out?" -- had made incidents worse. In one case I heard of, a
pilot with a broken arm had deployed her chute in the plane by
accident and had to land that way. So there were plusses and minusses
to chutes.

As I was debating the issue, a friend sent me a copy of an article on
mountain wave, with a title that probably included the word monster.
Having flown in wave a number of times, my first reaction was, "Yes
there are dangers, but wave itself is the smoothest form of lift.
Probably written by a power pilot who hasn't experienced the beauty of
wave." Was I wrong.

It was written about two gliders exploring the Sierra wave in the
early days. One of them encountered such severe rotor turbulence --
estimated at 15 g's -- that it broke up and the pilot on initial bail
out was going UP! Chastened, I went out and bought two chutes. Further
investigation has led me to fly with chutes even in benign conditions.
(When I asked my rigger about using chutes in general, he told me of a
friend who'd be here if he had. Another plane clipped his tail in the
pattern, making his ship uncontrollable.) So Allan's flying without a
chute was not what I do now, but it was something I had contemplated.

Similarly, the lack of oxygen on the flight looks really bad in hind
sight but may have played no part in this accident. Allan had told a
mutual friend that he wasn't going to go high enough on this flight to
need it. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't learn from even the
possibility that lack of oxygen contributed to the accident. Just that
we should try not to insulate ourselves from the danger by pretending
we'd never do anything similar. Most of us have.

Hoping these comments prove helpful and with fond memories of Allan.

Martin

After attending two high altitude chamber sessions and learning just how
diminished we are at even 8K, I use my O2 starting much lower than the FAA
requires. You don't use much when you are down low and some of us need all
the brain power we can get!

O2 is cheap compared to what you might gain from it.

Gary Boggs

"Martin Hellman" wrote in message
m...
I met Allan only about two months ago, but his infectious good humor
and general manner of being immediately made him a valued friend. We
flew together in my two place ship just a month ago and had a great
time. The call Saturday afternoon telling me of his death was a real
shock. One minute he's here, the next he's gone.

Understandably, there has been some speculation on the cause of this
tragedy, and at a personal level, it's almost impossible to stop. But,
out of respect for Allan as well as the truth, I would encourage us to
wait for the NTSB report. Allan was an ATP who flew for a major
airline for many years and did not impress me as one to take safety
lightly.

When accidents happen there's a natural human tendency to try and find
something that the other guy did wrong so we can convince ourselves
that "it couldn't happen to me." I'd encourage instead that we try to
find any parallels between whatever might have caused this accident
(even if it didn't) and our own thinking. That way, maybe Allan's
death can help save someone else.

On parachutes for example: When I first got into mountain soaring in
1994, I debated whether or not to get parachutes. On the one hand,
they were a huge plus if you had to bail out. That's a no brainer. But
I also had heard stories where the extra decision step -- "should I
bail out?" -- had made incidents worse. In one case I heard of, a
pilot with a broken arm had deployed her chute in the plane by
accident and had to land that way. So there were plusses and minusses
to chutes.

As I was debating the issue, a friend sent me a copy of an article on
mountain wave, with a title that probably included the word monster.
Having flown in wave a number of times, my first reaction was, "Yes
there are dangers, but wave itself is the smoothest form of lift.
Probably written by a power pilot who hasn't experienced the beauty of
wave." Was I wrong.

It was written about two gliders exploring the Sierra wave in the
early days. One of them encountered such severe rotor turbulence --
estimated at 15 g's -- that it broke up and the pilot on initial bail
out was going UP! Chastened, I went out and bought two chutes. Further
investigation has led me to fly with chutes even in benign conditions.
(When I asked my rigger about using chutes in general, he told me of a
friend who'd be here if he had. Another plane clipped his tail in the
pattern, making his ship uncontrollable.) So Allan's flying without a
chute was not what I do now, but it was something I had contemplated.

Similarly, the lack of oxygen on the flight looks really bad in hind
sight but may have played no part in this accident. Allan had told a
mutual friend that he wasn't going to go high enough on this flight to
need it. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't learn from even the
possibility that lack of oxygen contributed to the accident. Just that
we should try not to insulate ourselves from the danger by pretending
we'd never do anything similar. Most of us have.

Hoping these comments prove helpful and with fond memories of Allan.

Martin

Gary Boggs wrote:

After attending two high altitude chamber sessions and learning just how
diminished we are at even 8K, I use my O2 starting much lower than the FAA
requires. You don't use much when you are down low and some of us need all
the brain power we can get!

In our club, we have equipped all our ships with the EDS-D1 system.
(Each member brings his/her own cannula or mask, of course.) It has
become common practise to use the cannula for every cross country
flight. With the EDS system, the oxygen lasts forever.

It was an investment, but it feels good to wake up the day after an 8
hour flight at 9000 ft without a headache!

Stefan

Except two strokes perhaps.Point taken though.

The only problem is that you need to be able to turn cabin heat off and on
so that would involve high pressure, high reliability valves, two expensive
radiators and high pressure tubing. Perhaps a closed circuit heat exchanger
to a water filled system would work. Now you've added perhaps 3 - 4 kg of
radiator and tubing plus another 4 or 5 litres of water. Hmm, one can see
why the exhaust muff got in there in the first place.

Ian

Not quite so, Ian. The oil cooler would always be cooling the oil,
just what you do with the warm air downstream from it is the issue. A
simple vane valve diverts the warm air either into the cabine or out
into the atmosphere. Simple and light-weight!

Uli

"Ulrich Neumann" wrote in message
om...
Except two strokes perhaps.Point taken though.

The only problem is that you need to be able to turn cabin heat off and
on
so that would involve high pressure, high reliability valves, two
expensive
radiators and high pressure tubing. Perhaps a closed circuit heat
exchanger
to a water filled system would work. Now you've added perhaps 3 - 4 kg
of
radiator and tubing plus another 4 or 5 litres of water. Hmm, one can
see
why the exhaust muff got in there in the first place.

Ian

Not quite so, Ian. The oil cooler would always be cooling the oil,
just what you do with the warm air downstream from it is the issue. A
simple vane valve diverts the warm air either into the cabine or out
into the atmosphere. Simple and light-weight!

Uli

Once while droning through a cold, wet and bumpy night I got to thinking
that of all the things I could be worrying about, the worst was that 2mm of
red hot steel separating hot, poisonous exhaust gasses from the cabin air.
Exhaust muffs are scary.

It's one of the reasons I enjoy flying gliders more than airplanes.

Bill Daniels