Pre Takeoff Checklists

snip

Do any pilots other than glider pilots use memorized checklists?

yes, depending on the plane

CIGARTIP
GUMP
and variations there of are the most common ones.

Brian

Answering the OP's question, I use before signalling to the wing
runner: Altimeter, Belts, Controls, Cable, Canopy, Divebrakes,
Direction (wind), Dolly, Emergency. Came from flying Schweitzer
products, with a few of my own additions. Before I close the canopy I
also review the written checklist from Rolladen Schneider posted on
the bottom of instrument console - this checklist doesn't stem from
any other check list I've seen in this thread.

-John

On Mar 23, 9:20 am, Tony wrote:
Seems to me that it's been a while since we had a good brouhaha over
pretakeoff checklists. Most of use use either ABBCCCDDE (or is it
AABBCCDDE? Or ABBBCCCCDDEEFG?) or CBSIFTCB or some other variant. I'm
curious what you use and WHY? What have you added or subtracted to
the "base" checklist to fit your specific glider or operation, or to
prevent problems you have encountered.

I personally use CBSIFTCB in all the gliders I fly. After that is
complete I'm OK hooking up the rope, then I review WET (Wind,
Emergency, Traffic) and give the signal to launch.

OK,

ive often wondered if you asked a room of glider pilots how many A's,
B's, C's, D's, and E's there were in their checklist how many answers
you'd get. Tom's report satisfies my suspiscion. I used to use ABCDE
but I could never remember how many of each. Plus some people used an
A for airbrakes, another uses a B for Brakes and others use a D for
Dive brakes!

So, regardless of the form of checklist, what does RAS suggest be
included in the before takeoff check? Of course it there will be some
variance between different types. Bob Buck talked in one of his books
about "Killer Items" which I think is an appropriate thing to be
looking for right before you hook up to the towplane. So yes you
could have a written checklist that includes taking your wallet out of
your pocket and things like that, but Tom's ASK-13 checklist (canopy
and airbrakes) is an example of the checklist addressing only the
Killer Items. Although I think that it may be a little to the
extreme.

On Mar 23, 7:20*am, Tony wrote:
Seems to me that it's been a while since we had a good brouhaha over
pretakeoff checklists. *Most of use use either ABBCCCDDE (or is it
AABBCCDDE? Or ABBBCCCCDDEEFG?) or CBSIFTCB or some other variant. *I'm
curious what you use and WHY? *What have you added or subtracted to
the "base" checklist to fit your specific glider or operation, or to
prevent problems you have encountered.

I personally use CBSIFTCB in all the gliders I fly. After that is
complete I'm OK hooking up the rope, then I review WET (Wind,
Emergency, Traffic) and give the signal to launch.

CBSIFTCB E with Flaps always reponded to even if the response is
NONE. Wind is not on my checklist, nor is checking to see if I put my
pants (trousers) and shoes on. How could anyone sitting in a cockpit
waiting to takeoff be unaware of the wind?

The Emergency add on seems to have been replaced in UK by
Eventualities. That observation based on a recent visit to the UK
club where I did my early glider training. Don't know why it changed
but the review of E's doesn't change.

Some people responding here seem to be confusing a pre-takeoff check
list with a flight preparation checklist. I have a pre-pushout
checklist for all the things that would impact my flight if I forgot
them, but that is completely separate from the memorized pre-takeoff
checks. It's before I push out that I check I have my pants on.
(Actually that's not as silly as it sounds - I often prepare for
flying in shorts but prefer to fly in long pants).

Some people like to cite what airline pilots do, thinking they prepare
for takeoff by going though a checklist. They don't. Normally they
do all the preparation and configuration by memory using standard
flows and, after it is all done, then they run the checklist. Also,
the most critical emergency procedures have to be memorized and
executed without a checklist, then the checklist is used to "check" if
time allows.

Andy

Written laminated checklist for all phases of flight. (but i am flying
a self launcher.)

Mark 1AC

I am strongly opposed to memorized pre-flight checklists, because it's
too easy to be distracted or forgetful and miss something important.
I require my students to refer to a printed pre-flight checklist and
complete each step in order, and I use one in my own glider. I
believe that too many accidents have been caused by poor preflight
checklist completion--there are too many accident reports citing poor
checklist discipline as a factor. Preflight is a time when the pilot
can take his/her time to do it right, and refuse to allow any
distractions and not be rushed. That printed checklist is a powerful
tool, and should be used as such, every time!

Inflight, it's a different story. There is too much going on--
clearing, flying, planning--to be burying one's head in the cockpit
and reading a checklist. The pre-maneuver and before landing
checklists must be SIMPLE and memorized. Adding things like "look"
and "land" just garbages them up. Checklists are supposed to be
specific actions to configure the glider or prepare for an event.
Switches, controls, straps, checking the wind and airbrakes all fall
in this category. Doing what we are supposed to be doing does not.

On Mar 23, 10:20*am, Tony wrote:
Seems to me that it's been a while since we had a good brouhaha over
pretakeoff checklists. *Most of use use either ABBCCCDDE (or is it
AABBCCDDE? Or ABBBCCCCDDEEFG?) or CBSIFTCB or some other variant. *I'm
curious what you use and WHY? *What have you added or subtracted to
the "base" checklist to fit your specific glider or operation, or to
prevent problems you have encountered.

I personally use CBSIFTCB in all the gliders I fly. After that is
complete I'm OK hooking up the rope, then I review WET (Wind,
Emergency, Traffic) and give the signal to launch.

Antares 20E has a built-in take-off checklist in the aircraft
computer which works very nicely. The nice German lady
will warn you if the tail dolly is still attached (though most
pilots taxi and don't use the tail dolly) ;-)
Yes, Really ;-)

The O2 I can turn on in the cockpit.
I do use a preparation checklist for things like
water, suntan lotion, etc.

Landing is pretty idiot-proof. The nice German
lady reprimands you for extending the spoilers
prior extending the landing gear ;-)
Yes, Really ;-)

See ya, Dave "YO electric"

PS: Anyone have checklists on their flight computers ?
We've never done this in the SN10...

On Mar 23, 12:47*pm, Andy wrote:
On Mar 23, 7:20*am, Tony wrote:

Seems to me that it's been a while since we had a good brouhaha over
pretakeoff checklists. *Most of use use either ABBCCCDDE (or is it
AABBCCDDE? Or ABBBCCCCDDEEFG?) or CBSIFTCB or some other variant. *I'm
curious what you use and WHY? *What have you added or subtracted to
the "base" checklist to fit your specific glider or operation, or to
prevent problems you have encountered.

I personally use CBSIFTCB *in all the gliders I fly. After that is
complete I'm OK hooking up the rope, then I review WET (Wind,
Emergency, Traffic) and give the signal to launch.

CBSIFTCB E with Flaps always reponded to even if the response is
NONE. *Wind is not on my checklist, nor is checking to see if I put my
pants (trousers) and shoes on. *How could anyone sitting in a cockpit
waiting to takeoff be unaware of the wind?

The Emergency add on seems to have been replaced in UK by
Eventualities. *That observation based on a recent visit to the UK
club where I did my early glider training. Don't know why it changed
but the review of E's doesn't change.

Some people responding here seem to be confusing a pre-takeoff check
list with a flight preparation checklist. I have a pre-pushout
checklist for all the things that would impact my flight if I forgot
them, but that is completely separate from the memorized pre-takeoff
checks. It's before I push out that I check I have my pants on.
(Actually that's not as silly as it sounds - I often prepare for
flying in shorts but prefer to fly in long pants).

Some people like to cite what airline pilots do, thinking they prepare
for takeoff by going though a checklist. *They don't. *Normally they
do all the preparation and configuration by memory using standard
flows and, after it is all done, then they run the checklist. *Also,
the most critical emergency procedures have to be memorized and
executed without a checklist, then the checklist is used to "check" if
time allows.

Andy

I am not blissfully unaware of the wind as I arrive at the gliderport
and pull the glider to the runway, but I do like to take the few
seconds to take a glance at the wind sock or yaw string and just
refresh myself on what the wind situation is going to be like for that
particular takeoff.

You've hit on the key difference between a Checklist and a Do-list.
Your description of an airline cockpit is an example of a real
checklist where a task was performed and the list was used to verify
that it was performed. What most of us use in the glider is a Do-list
where we recite the item to be completed and then perform the task.

I think if your pretakeoff checklist is so long that it can't be
memorized then perhaps some of your "pretakeoff" items need to be
moved off the runway. I'm not convinced that sitting on the runway
with the towplane running, ground crew running around, and who knows
what is happening with other traffic in the air, is the best time to
be heads down going through a lengthy printed checklist. The runway
time should be reserved for the "Killer Items". Anything else should
be done before you stage. So, as I asked a few posts ago, what are
the killer items? I use the logic stream that if I forget to do it
then something bad will or can happen. So I check controls to make
sure that nothing is impeding their movement. If i'm flying a glider
with removable ballast I make sure it is removed (for fat me), I make
sure I'm strapped in so i don't go for Mr. Toads Wild Ride, set the
altimeter so that *at a glance* I can determine my altitude AGL, set
flaps and trim so that once i get in the air I know what to expect
from the glider, shut the canopy and LOCK it so that it doesnt blow
off, and check the airbrakes and LOCK them so that bad things dont
happen.

I don't have "hook up the rope" on my before takeoff checklist because
if I forget to hook up the rope, nothing bad will happen except the
towplane will takeoff and ill stay on the runway and people will look
at us funny.

Thats just me though, I'm curious what the rest of RAS thinks.
enjoying the conversation so far!

To some extent this discussion boils down to semantics and what glider
you're flying. I could subscribe to calling what you check immediately
before takeoff a "killer list" rather than a pre-takeoff checklist.
After all, these are the last items to be checked before bad things
that can happen suddenly might occur. But what should be on the killer
list? It depends.

If I'm about to fly a club ship that's flown for the last few hours, I
want to make sure it's configured for me and that important
instruments, controls, locking mechanisms and pilot attitude are ready
for flight. Ballast, altimeter, contols, dive brakes, canopy, tail
dolly, and emegency prodedures are on this list. However, my club
encourages the use of a short written checklist which is in the side
pocket, which covers more items than are on the killer list, and I run
thorugh this as I'm waiting for the towplane. I also run through my
ABCCCDDDE memorized list just before I give a thumbs up to the wing
runner, primarily to insure everything was checked and that my head is
ready for flight.

If I'm about to fly my own ship, then I've put in a hour or so of time
rigging, checking, loading and configuring. I've done a critical
assembly check, a positive control check, I've taped the wings,
winglets and tail, I've checked the tire pressure, made sure the
electrical system is functional and that all electrical instruments
are loaded with the correct nav or communication data and functional.
I've put my hat, sunglasses, wallet, phone and food in the side
pocket, and stored the Camelbak in its place. I've talked to the field
manager, gotten a place on the flight line, aligned the plane to the
runway and removed the tail dolly. I turn on the electrical system,
turn on the radio and set it to the field frequency, put the
transponder on standby, turn on the SN10, clear the Volkslogger memory
and turn off its warnings, and set the altimeter to field height. At
this point I run through the LS written checklist on bottom of the
instrument cluster. Then I struggle into the chute, get into the
plane, wiggle until I can reach and fasten the harness belts and
thread the Camelbak hose into position, and put the mike into
position. As the towplane taxis up I do a radio check and request a
tow height. The canopy comes down and is locked, and I inspect the tow
rope condition where it attaches to the Tost rings before I allow hook-
up. At this point the killer items are contols, dive brakes, canopy,
and emegency prodedures. However, I run through my ABCCCDDDE memorized
list to make absolutely sure all important items were checked and that
my head is in the right place for possible trouble just before I give
a thumbs up to the wing runner.

It's possible to pare down the pre-takeoff checklist, or to change to
one that's universal. But what real advantage would this bring? The
two pre-flight checklists commonly used both contain all the killer
items that should absolutely be checked just before flight. And with
repeated use, each checklist has a rhythm that will cause a pilot to
stop if something is missed or out of place. I don't think it really
matters what exactly is on each pilots checklist, so long as it
contains the same items on each and every flight.

-John

On Mar 23, 2:54 pm, Tony wrote:
I think if your pretakeoff checklist is so long that it can't be
memorized then perhaps some of your "pretakeoff" items need to be
moved off the runway. I'm not convinced that sitting on the runway
with the towplane running, ground crew running around, and who knows
what is happening with other traffic in the air, is the best time to
be heads down going through a lengthy printed checklist. The runway
time should be reserved for the "Killer Items". Anything else should
be done before you stage. So, as I asked a few posts ago, what are
the killer items? I use the logic stream that if I forget to do it
then something bad will or can happen. So I check controls to make
sure that nothing is impeding their movement. If i'm flying a glider
with removable ballast I make sure it is removed (for fat me), I make
sure I'm strapped in so i don't go for Mr. Toads Wild Ride, set the
altimeter so that *at a glance* I can determine my altitude AGL, set
flaps and trim so that once i get in the air I know what to expect
from the glider, shut the canopy and LOCK it so that it doesnt blow
off, and check the airbrakes and LOCK them so that bad things dont
happen.

On Mar 23, 4:09*pm, jcarlyle wrote:
To some extent this discussion boils down to semantics and what glider
you're flying. I could subscribe to calling what you check immediately
before takeoff a "killer list" rather than a pre-takeoff checklist.
After all, these are the last items to be checked before bad things
that can happen suddenly might occur. But what should be on the killer
list? It depends.

If I'm about to fly a club ship that's flown for the last few hours, I
want to make sure it's configured for me and that important
instruments, controls, locking mechanisms and pilot attitude are ready
for flight. Ballast, altimeter, contols, dive brakes, canopy, tail
dolly, and emegency prodedures are on this list. However, my club
encourages the use of a short written checklist which is in the side
pocket, which covers more items than are on the killer list, and I run
thorugh this as I'm waiting for the towplane. I also run through my
ABCCCDDDE memorized list just before I give a thumbs up to the wing
runner, primarily to insure everything was checked and that my head is
ready for flight.

If I'm about to fly my own ship, then I've put in a hour or so of time
rigging, checking, loading and configuring. I've done a critical
assembly check, a positive control check, I've taped the wings,
winglets and tail, I've checked the tire pressure, made sure the
electrical system is functional and that all electrical instruments
are loaded with the correct nav or communication data and functional.
I've put my hat, sunglasses, wallet, phone and food in the side
pocket, and stored the Camelbak in its place. I've talked to the field
manager, gotten a place on the flight line, aligned the plane to the
runway and removed the tail dolly. I turn on the electrical system,
turn on the radio and set it to the field frequency, put the
transponder on standby, turn on the SN10, clear the Volkslogger memory
and turn off its warnings, and set the altimeter to field height. At
this point I run through the LS written checklist on bottom of the
instrument cluster. Then I struggle into the chute, get into the
plane, wiggle until I can reach and fasten the harness belts and
thread the Camelbak hose into position, and put the mike into
position. As the towplane taxis up I do a radio check and request a
tow height. The canopy comes down and is locked, and I inspect the tow
rope condition where it attaches to the Tost rings before I allow hook-
up. At this point the killer items are contols, dive brakes, canopy,
and emegency prodedures. However, I run through my ABCCCDDDE memorized
list to make absolutely sure all important items were checked and that
my head is in the right place for possible trouble just before I give
a thumbs up to the wing runner.

It's possible to pare down the pre-takeoff checklist, or to change to
one that's universal. But what real advantage would this bring? The
two pre-flight checklists commonly used both contain all the killer
items that should absolutely be checked just before flight. And with
repeated use, each checklist has a rhythm that will cause a pilot to
stop if something is missed or out of place. I don't think it really
matters what exactly is on each pilots checklist, so long as it
contains the same items on each and every flight.


John -

very nice reply and i agree wholeheartedly!