Looking for non-biased resource

I had a brief meeting with my CEO last week. Our company spends 80K - 120K
annually on commercial flights. He knows I am a private pilot and he asked
me if I could prepare a comparative analysis of alternatives such as
fractional ownership, outright ownership, leaseback or charter.

I don't know jack about jets. My assumption is that I'm looking at a jet
versus a King Air or similar. We're based in Houston and regularly fly
to
both coasts with 3 - 6 passengers. I am looking at a large, empty
spreadsheet. Many manufacturers and brokers offer breakdowns for their
products but I am looking for a non-biased source for several pieces of
information.


Houston is a well-served city by the airlines. Being in the middle of the
country, you've got good access by jet coast to coast if you're going to major
cities. Since you service Fotune 250 companies, I'd guess that most of your
destinations are well-served also.

It'll be tough to beat the time factor, even counting the inevitable standing
in line with the rabble at the airports. Jetliners are fast. There's not much
in the private sector that's as fast as a 737 and very little that's faster.

Costwise, you're not even going to get close unless compare first class
accomodations and demand luxury travel with a high-level of service. If you're
flying 6 big wigs around, that actually might not come out too bad.

Dispatch rate with the airlines is going to be impossible to match with your
own aircraft. So you'll still be buying tickets sometimes. That's another
reason to look into some sort of demand-based charter or fractional operation.

You could come out ahead if you do a lot of shorter trips, or if you frequently
travel between cities that do not have major airports. You may also do good if
you have to fly a lot of last-minute trips, since the airlines hit you the
hardest for short-notice travel.

One approach that might be interesting is to contact some of the charter and
fractional ownership operations and ask them to do some of the work for you and
come up with a number. Just start with all the flights you booked last year and
ask them to run a comparison, taking into consideration how far in advance you
scheduled.

The other side of the coin is insurance. Many corporate and life insurance
policies have exclusions for air travel on a non-scheduled operation.





--
Dr. Nuketopia
Sorry, no e-Mail.
Spam forgeries have resulted in thousands of faked bounces to my address.

Contractors are not an option. Typically our customers have highly
sophisticated IT departments with scores of skilled technicians. Our
product is an integrated software suite that is customized during the
installation to the customer requirements. The installation and
customization requires substantial knowledge in several areas. Our techs
usually go through about 4 months of telephone support performing tier 1, 2
and 3 support before going on the road. They are mentored on installations
by a senior engineer for 3-6 months before being sent to an installation
solo.

Ed

"Mike Rapoport" wrote in message
ink.net...
A bare bones jet like a CJ-2 will cost about $1200/hr to operate if you
have
high utilization. Interest cost on the purchase will be about $350K/yr.
If
you fly 400hrs/yr it will cost $830K/yr.

Old cheap jets will cost substantially more to operate but less to buy.
Basically, the higher your utilization, the more sense it makes to buy a
newer airplane with lower operating costs. Many of these older jets will
requre a fuel stop flying westbound between Houston and one of the coasts
particulary if you are going to the NE or NW. Without RVSM, none of the
older jets will be able to make the westbound legs without stopping..

I have never heard of a company flyings technicians around in a private
jet
to install software. It sounds ridiculous. Can't you find a contractor
to
install the software?

Mike
MU-2


"nobody" wrote in message
om...


I had a brief meeting with my CEO last week. Our company spends 80K -
120K
annually on commercial flights. He knows I am a private pilot and he
asked
me if I could prepare a comparative analysis of alternatives such as
fractional ownership, outright ownership, leaseback or charter.

I don't know jack about jets. My assumption is that I'm looking at a
jet
versus a King Air or similar. We're based in Houston and regularly fly
to
both coasts with 3 - 6 passengers. I am looking at a large, empty
spreadsheet. Many manufacturers and brokers offer breakdowns for their
products but I am looking for a non-biased source for several pieces of
information.

1.) Where can I find non-biased, mostly accurate estimate of direct and
indirect operating costs?

2.) There are several business jet models available for 1,000,000 like
the
Hawker DH 125, Sabre, Citation 500, Lear 24 and 25, Jet Commander.
Short
of
looking up all the AD's for each variation of each model, where can I
find
an honest review of those models with both pros and cons?

3.) Is $1,000,000 reasonable or should I expect those aircraft to be
in
need of some serious work, AD compliance, or expensive upgrades to meet
RVSM
certification?

4.) Anybody know what a full time corporate pilot makes nowadays?

TIA,
Ed

We have a few customers that require security clearances and US citizenship
but the reason we do the installs ourselves is the depth of knowledge
required to do the installation, customization and training.

Ed

"G.R. Patterson III" wrote in message
...


zatatime wrote:

On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 19:22:13 GMT, "G.R. Patterson III"
wrote:

Contractors would be completely unsuitable for
this in all the cases with which I am familiar.

I've seen it done, and worked on proprietary projects. You have to
sign a bunch of forms saying you won't steal the technology or compete
with them for 6 to 12 months, but most of it just re-enforces what
should be good ethical procedures anyway.

For the systems on which I used to work, no contractor could do it without
several days to several weeks of extensive training at corporate
facilities.
That alone makes contracting with remotely based people for one-shot jobs
completely unsuitable. In some cases with which I'm familiar, a security
clearance is also required, but I would guess that isn't the case here.

George Patterson
The desire for safety stands against every great and noble
enterprise.

You're correct that IAH and HOU both have a lot of operations. The
assumption that large companies are in large cities is incorrect. Try to
get a flight into Chapel Hill, NC. You have to go to Raleigh via Charlotte.
How about Tyco Electronics in Harrisburg, PA via CLE. Intel in Folsom takes
a flight to SFO then Sacramento but we usually drive a rental from SFO
because it is faster than making the connecting flight. BMW USA is a flight
to Atlanta and a 1.75 hr drive up past Marietta. Tyson foods is in
Springdale, AR. and so on.

Oh almost forgot to mention that we have to leave the office at 8:00 to make
an 11:00 flight and we're only 11 miles from the airport but its a 45 minute
drive, parking, check-in and security probe. We are 10 minutes from SGR and
15 minutes from IWS.

Insurance scares me the most. I can control the amount of debt we take on.
I can control the flight hours. I can choose an older less expensive jet or
a shiny new one. Insurance I have to take what I can get from the
underwriters and live with all the riders and waivers or pay through the
nose.

This isn't a cost a decision based on cheaper operation, it is a decision
about the improved productivity, better efficiency, better customer support,
more flexible installation scheduling. I'm sure that part of the decision
will also be based on the CEO's ego. Yes it will cost more than commercial,
that's a given. The whole thread was about how much more. I will soon have
a number from some fractional to tell me how much more this improvement will
cost us.

Ed


"nuke" wrote in message
...
I had a brief meeting with my CEO last week. Our company spends 80K -
120K
annually on commercial flights. He knows I am a private pilot and he
asked
me if I could prepare a comparative analysis of alternatives such as
fractional ownership, outright ownership, leaseback or charter.

I don't know jack about jets. My assumption is that I'm looking at a jet
versus a King Air or similar. We're based in Houston and regularly fly
to
both coasts with 3 - 6 passengers. I am looking at a large, empty
spreadsheet. Many manufacturers and brokers offer breakdowns for their
products but I am looking for a non-biased source for several pieces of
information.


Houston is a well-served city by the airlines. Being in the middle of the
country, you've got good access by jet coast to coast if you're going to
major
cities. Since you service Fotune 250 companies, I'd guess that most of
your
destinations are well-served also.

It'll be tough to beat the time factor, even counting the inevitable
standing
in line with the rabble at the airports. Jetliners are fast. There's not
much
in the private sector that's as fast as a 737 and very little that's
faster.

Costwise, you're not even going to get close unless compare first class
accomodations and demand luxury travel with a high-level of service. If
you're
flying 6 big wigs around, that actually might not come out too bad.

Dispatch rate with the airlines is going to be impossible to match with
your
own aircraft. So you'll still be buying tickets sometimes. That's another
reason to look into some sort of demand-based charter or fractional
operation.

You could come out ahead if you do a lot of shorter trips, or if you
frequently
travel between cities that do not have major airports. You may also do
good if
you have to fly a lot of last-minute trips, since the airlines hit you the
hardest for short-notice travel.

One approach that might be interesting is to contact some of the charter
and
fractional ownership operations and ask them to do some of the work for
you and
come up with a number. Just start with all the flights you booked last
year and
ask them to run a comparison, taking into consideration how far in advance
you
scheduled.

The other side of the coin is insurance. Many corporate and life insurance
policies have exclusions for air travel on a non-scheduled operation.





--
Dr. Nuketopia
Sorry, no e-Mail.
Spam forgeries have resulted in thousands of faked bounces to my address.

I know what you're talking about. I was a road warrior for 7 years doing
SAP consulting. We're not the first contractor they've had in house. They
know what they're paying for airfare already. Typically, they pay
refundable Y fare rates. It's spelled out in the P.O. what we will expense
to the client and what the cap is.

I wonder how your clients knew how you flew. Most of my teams have enough
miles that they are traveling platinum elite status and almost without
exception, fly first class for the price of refundable coach. I'm not aware
that the clients have any idea that my teams are traveling first class. The
clients certainly haven't complained. If we went to private jet, I would
expect the same level of discretion from my team.

Ed

"C Kingsbury" wrote in message
nk.net...

"nobody" wrote in message
om...
Not looking for cheaper. We are hurting on point to point travel,
scheduling, long security delays, last minute changes, no advance
purchase.
In our favor, much of our expense is billed directly back to the clients
up
to a pre-determined amount.


Good luck getting client reimbursement if you're flying private. I'd be a
little concerned about how it appears to them- clients like to feel like
they're getting MIT Ph.Ds at the same price they pay for Mexican
gardeners.
When the team shows up in a private jet it screams "money coming out the
wazoo" which makes me wonder whether you're charging me way too much for
the
software. Even getting them to cover the equivalent of an airline ticket
might be touchy. Last IT consulting shop I was at, the clients screamed
bloody murder about covering any ticket over $300, even cross-country. It
may be worth it ultimately, but if you're billing $100k of travel to
clients
now, that money might be out the door if you do get a plane.

-cwk.

"Nathan Young" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 08:08:09 GMT, "nobody" wrote:



I had a brief meeting with my CEO last week. Our company spends 80K -
120K
annually on commercial flights. He knows I am a private pilot and he
asked
me if I could prepare a comparative analysis of alternatives such as
fractional ownership, outright ownership, leaseback or charter.

I don't know jack about jets. My assumption is that I'm looking at a jet
versus a King Air or similar. We're based in Houston and regularly fly
to
both coasts with 3 - 6 passengers.

Me either, but I do know enough to say that outright ownership is
going to be impossible for $100k/year, especially if opportunity cost
or loan payments are considered. The loan payment on most jets will
approach $100k/year. Throw in a hangar rent, insurance, and a
corporate pilot (or two), and you will have hit $100k without going
anywhere. You could probably leaseback the jet to the local
charter/FBO operation to help defray the fixed costs, but I have a
hard time believing a jet leaseback can make it financially feasible.

Charter will be expensive too, but then again, so are the airlines if
the trips are last minute and to out of the way destinations. It is
easy to spend $1000/ticket. If you are flying 3-6 people via $1000
airline tickets, givent the time savings and flexibility involved, a
charter may make sense instead.

2.) There are several business jet models available for 1,000,000 like
the
Hawker DH 125, Sabre, Citation 500, Lear 24 and 25, Jet Commander. Short
of
looking up all the AD's for each variation of each model, where can I
find
an honest review of those models with both pros and cons?

3.) Is $1,000,000 reasonable or should I expect those aircraft to be in
need of some serious work, AD compliance, or expensive upgrades to meet
RVSM
certification?

Many of the older jets use fuel inefficient engines that will increase
hourly fuel costs. Also, many older jets are so loud that they are
limited in terms of when & what airports they can use. One other
consideration is runway length. If you are flying to out of the way
destinations, a 350 kt Citation (which requires less than 3500ft of
runway) may be much quicker door-door than a 500kt Lear that requires
5000+ ft runways.

Ops figures for several of the Citation series can be found at:
http://www.risingup.com

Last, I would spend some time at this website - NBAA has published
many articles that address your situation and your questions.
http://web.nbaa.org/public/about/library/

-Nathan





Knew there had to be a catch, thanks for clearing that up.
Ed

Exactly! Key personnel and scheduling. Bottom line is "can we afford it?",
not "is it cheaper?"

Ed

wrote in message
news:By6vd.6604$xa6.4103@trnddc09...

On 12-Dec-2004, zatatime wrote:

Just from what I know about operating/owning small aircraft, and the
charter business, you're doing pretty well right now, and any other
alternative will be significantly more expensive.

There are undoubtedly some companies that actually reduce travel costs by
operating their own aircraft (or that use fractional ownership programs),
but that is not usually the issue. The two key factors that "sell"
business
aviation are increased productivity of executives and key staff and
increased business opportunities that are enabled by substantially
increased
travel flexibility.

I have experience with two examples. In one case, a wireless company can
centralize network engineering functions (and thereby saving huge amounts
annually) by being able to dispatch engineering teams (and their
equipment)
as required to relatively small cities within a region. This would be
difficult to do using the airlines.

The other case is my own: Using my Arrow I have been able to schedule
meetings with clients that would have been tough to work out if I were
constrained by airline routes and schedules.

--
-Elliott Drucker

I checked them out. You deposit 100K or 250K and they deduct $2,150 per
hour you fly for a light jet. Probably the simplest plan I've seen so far.

Ed

"Steve Foley" wrote in message
...
I saw some interesting stuff at www.sentientjet.com. Looks like somewhere
between a charter and fractional. I think you pay an upfront fee, and they
schedule the charter for you, supposedly at a better rate.

I think they simply act as a dispatcher. It may or not be what you're
looking for.

Good luck.


"nobody" wrote in message
om...


I had a brief meeting with my CEO last week. Our company spends 80K -
120K
annually on commercial flights. He knows I am a private pilot and he
asked
me if I could prepare a comparative analysis of alternatives such as
fractional ownership, outright ownership, leaseback or charter.

I don't know jack about jets. My assumption is that I'm looking at a
jet
versus a King Air or similar. We're based in Houston and regularly fly
to
both coasts with 3 - 6 passengers. I am looking at a large, empty
spreadsheet. Many manufacturers and brokers offer breakdowns for their
products but I am looking for a non-biased source for several pieces of
information.

1.) Where can I find non-biased, mostly accurate estimate of direct and
indirect operating costs?

2.) There are several business jet models available for 1,000,000 like
the
Hawker DH 125, Sabre, Citation 500, Lear 24 and 25, Jet Commander.
Short
of
looking up all the AD's for each variation of each model, where can I
find
an honest review of those models with both pros and cons?

3.) Is $1,000,000 reasonable or should I expect those aircraft to be
in
need of some serious work, AD compliance, or expensive upgrades to meet
RVSM
certification?

4.) Anybody know what a full time corporate pilot makes nowadays?

TIA,
Ed

"Mike Rapoport" wrote in message
ink.net...
A bare bones jet like a CJ-2 will cost about $1200/hr to operate if you
have
high utilization. Interest cost on the purchase will be about $350K/yr.
If
you fly 400hrs/yr it will cost $830K/yr.

Could you show some details for those numbers? I don't know about theCJ-2,
but I do know some people who oeprate a 2001 CJ-1 and those numbers are not
even close on the interest cost.

particulary if you are going to the NE or NW. Without RVSM, none of the
older jets will be able to make the westbound legs without stopping..

Pardon? Just about any jet now is going to have to be certified for RVSM to
use an altitude over FL290. The cost, relative to the cost of the aircraft,
is "minimal" for equipment and training.

I have never heard of a company flyings technicians around in a private
jet
to install software. It sounds ridiculous. Can't you find a contractor
to
install the software?

That does sound bizarre, but I'd guess he's not talking about installing
Windows XP on some secretaries workstation. Now, if it's nusual software on
a highly secure system and environment, maybe so, but in any case, they'd be
more likely to jsut use the airlines.


--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

"G.R. Patterson III" wrote in message
...


Mike Rapoport wrote:

I have never heard of a company flyings technicians around in a private
jet
to install software. It sounds ridiculous. Can't you find a contractor
to
install the software?

While I've not heard of private aircraft being used for this, sending
company
personnel to do software installations is SOP for large systems or cases
in
which security is a big issue. Contractors would be completely unsuitable
for
this in all the cases with which I am familiar.

Some times it requires a security clearance...Secret, Top Secret...


--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO