Do you have to solo to get current?

On Mar 7, 6:26 pm, C J Campbell
wrote:
His instructor certificate says "Airplane single and
multiengine; instrument airplane." The correct answer is that the instructor
may not give instruction in a seaplane, because the commercial certificate is
limited to land planes. If the instructor gets a commercial seaplane
certificate then he is good to go.

That is another interesting point I spoke with Lynch about before his
retirement. At the time I held a PP-ASES and CFI-A. My question was,
'what reg prohibits me from instructing in a sea plane?". He couldn't
come up with a good answer. He said it didn't sound right, but no reg
actually says you must be at a commercial level to instruct (only to
take a CFI checkride). The question ended up becoming academic because
I upgraded my SES rating to commercial when my next BFR came up.

-Robert, CFII (land and sea, tailwheel, round dials and glass)

On 3/7/2007 7:10:07 PM, "Skidder" wrote:
As we all know, you can't carry a passenger unless you are current. But if
two pilots get in an aircraft with dual controls, can either of them really
be considered a passenger? You can log PIC from either seat.

Lets say, I have a PPL but am not current. My best friend has a PPL but is
not current. Both of us have a current medical? Is it legal for both of us to
get in an aircraft with dual controls, at the same time, shoot 6 take offs
and landings, 3 each, and log ourselves as current and split the flying time
in our logs?

Would be both absolutely have to have a current medical?

He is an attorney and says the way he reads the regs, that it's not exactly
clear. I myself don't know, but thought the group might enjoy debating the
question.

Along the same lines, if a PPL *is* current. Can he go for insurance check
ride with an instructor that is not, or doesn't have a current medilcal?



Ok, first things first, I am not a troll, and this is a very legitimate
question that could be applicable to lots of flyers.

Second, were all over the place here. MEIs, seaplanes, instructor without
medicals, you can't be PIC unless you are current (who's pic when you do your
currency work), ......sheesh guys let's keep our eyes on the ball.

You have two pilots, dual controls, both have full control of the aircraft.
To simplify more, let's say they both have current medicals, and have logged
at least 100 hours in this specific aircraft in the past. It's just been 95
days since each have flown.

What in the regs states that, a pilot with a full set of controls in front of
him, must be considered a passenger, just because someone else is flying the
plane.

It's a fair question, and I can't find a clear answer in the regs. But I'm
not a book worm either. I was just hoping there was enough experience *with
the regs* somewhere in this group, to locate a definitive answer.


--
Skidder

"Skidder" wrote in message
...
snip

What in the regs states that, a pilot with a full set of controls in front
of
him, must be considered a passenger, just because someone else is flying
the
plane.


I think there is a reg that says if the crew position is not required, the
person is a pax. For example a non-current person can be a safety pilot for
practicing IFR. Just because the plane has dual controls, it doesn't mean
the airplane requires a second it command.

Danny Deger
It's a fair question, and I can't find a clear answer in the regs. But I'm
not a book worm either. I was just hoping there was enough experience
*with
the regs* somewhere in this group, to locate a definitive answer.


--
Skidder

What in the regs states that, a pilot with a full set of controls in front of
him, must be considered a passenger, just because someone else is flying the
plane.

Well, what =is= a passenger? You can be a required crew member, or a
something else. What else would it be?

Jose
--
Humans are pack animals. Above all things, they have a deep need to
follow something, be it a leader, a creed, or a mob. Whosoever fully
understands this holds the world in his hands.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

On Mar 7, 10:15 pm, "Skidder" wrote:
On 3/7/2007 7:10:07 PM, "Skidder" wrote:

You have two pilots, dual controls, both have full control of the aircraft.
To simplify more, let's say they both have current medicals, and have logged
at least 100 hours in this specific aircraft in the past. It's just been 95
days since each have flown.
What in the regs states that, a pilot with a full set of controls in front of
him, must be considered a passenger, just because someone else is flying the
plane.

When you have two pilots on board, they should always agree who the
PIC for the flight should be. Many pilots do not do this.
Only one person can be the PIC of the flight. The other person, as
Jose says, has no other option than to be a considered passenger, what
else could he be? He's not a PIC, he is not a SIC, he's not a required
crewmember. It doesn't matter who's flying the airplane and it doesn't
matter who is in which seat, the non-PIC will be considered a pax.
This has nothing to do with LOGGING pic time, I better not get into
that.

In your scenario, none of the pilots is qualified to ACT as PIC of a
flight with a pax (i.e. an individual who is not the PIC or required
crewmember), per 61.57 (1). so the flight cannot be conducted. Even in
an aircraft where there is a required crewmember the PIC has to be
current as well (also per 61.57 (1))




It's a fair question, and I can't find a clear answer in the regs. But I'm
not a book worm either. I was just hoping there was enough experience *with
the regs* somewhere in this group, to locate a definitive answer.

--
Skidder

On Wed, 7 Mar 2007 18:32:32 -0800, Robert M. Gary wrote
(in article .com):

On Mar 7, 6:26 pm, C J Campbell
wrote:
His instructor certificate says "Airplane single and
multiengine; instrument airplane." The correct answer is that the instructor
may not give instruction in a seaplane, because the commercial certificate
is
limited to land planes. If the instructor gets a commercial seaplane
certificate then he is good to go.

That is another interesting point I spoke with Lynch about before his
retirement. At the time I held a PP-ASES and CFI-A. My question was,
'what reg prohibits me from instructing in a sea plane?". He couldn't
come up with a good answer. He said it didn't sound right, but no reg
actually says you must be at a commercial level to instruct (only to
take a CFI checkride). The question ended up becoming academic because
I upgraded my SES rating to commercial when my next BFR came up.

-Robert, CFII (land and sea, tailwheel, round dials and glass)




Yeah, I remember you talking about that before. But I think most FSDOs (and
Jeppesen's CFI course also) take the position that I stated.

Your point about the difficulty that MEIs have in staying current is also
good. Personally, I hate to be in a position where any FAA inspector who has
had a bad day can find some excuse to take it out on me.

Some FSDOs have been way over the top. Oakland FSDO actually tried to yank my
instructor's certificate because his 2nd class medical was more than a year
old and he was going to take me up for instrument instruction. The FSDO
argued that not only was I, a PPL at the time, really a passenger, but also
that instruction was a commercial flight and therefore required a 2nd class
medical! This was clearly wrong, but it caused a lot of problems for awhile.
It was a very nasty incident.

My instructor was lucky. Sometimes a FSDO will pull a stunt like this that is
clearly wrong, but when the victim shows up to the hearing the infraction
will be changed to something else. And if that won't stand, they invent
another one. Bob Hoover was a victim of that. Every time he showed up for a
hearing on the emergency revocation of his medical, the FAA had a different
reason for it.

The FAA is in the process of revising part 61 in its entirety. Now would be a
good time to submit your ideas for changes. I have heard of some good ones,
such as getting rid of the high performance sign-off, which accomplishes
basically nothing, and replacing it with a high-speed sign-off which might
actually mean something. Another idea is to simply get rid of the complex
aircraft sign-off and have a retractable gear sign-off instead. After all,
there are a very large number of planes that have controllable pitch
propellers and flaps now, but fixed gear. (Consider the Diamond DA-40, for
example.) And there are some that have retractable gear, but a fixed prop. It
is the gear that is the problem -- so have the sign-off for that only.

Tailwheel aircraft are getting to be rare enough that possibly they should be
like a type rating on the certificate. It is becoming increasingly difficult
to find tailwheel instruction.

And it would be nice to have some actual clarification as to whether
instructors need to have 3 takeoffs and landings in the last 90 days in order
to instruct.

--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

On Mar 7, 9:26 pm, C J Campbell
wrote:

It depends. First of all, you are misreading the reg. You have to be current
in the aircraft to act as PIC of an aircraft carrying passengers. Required
crewmembers are not passengers. Are both pilots required to fly the airplane?
If not, the one who is not acting PIC is a passenger.

Even if the aircraft needs two crewmembers, the PIC has to be current,
per 61.57 (1)

However, an instructor must be qualified and current in an aircraft that he
is giving instruction in. The instructor actually flies on the basis of his
commercial certificate, not his instructor certificate. ..... If the instructor gets a commercial seaplane
certificate then he is good to go.

My interpretation is that he only needs private pilot ASES to instruct
in seaplanes. 61.195 (b) only states that the CFI must hold a pilot
certificate (i.e private or commercial) and flight instructor
appropriate to the category and class rating. It is a little shady
because there is not such thing as CFI airplane sea or CFI airplane
land. According to 61.183, you can get a CFI airplane having a
commercial-ASEL certificate. However, I don't see anything that
prevents that pilot to instruct seaplanes if he is private pilot ASES.
if I am wrong, please point me to the specific reg that prohibits
this.

Similarly, an instructor may not give instruction in a tailwheel airplane
unless he has a tailwheel signoff. The moment he gets the signoff he can
instruct in tailwheel airplanes without getting a new instructor certificate.
Same goes for other signoffs such as high performance or pressurized planes.

The regs say that he only needs applicable category and class ratings.
However, if he wants to instruct somebody in a taildragger, the
student is probably not endorsed, so if the instructor is not
endorsed, nobody could be the PIC of the flight, so it makes sense
that the CFI has to be tailwheel endorsed, even though its not
specified in the regs.

So, an instructor may give instruction without a medical, but he may not give
instruction in an aircraft that he is not allowed to fly at a commercial
level. That means he has to be current in that aircraft IN ORDER TO GIVE
INSTRUCTION.

Where can you find this in the regs? If he doesn't need to act as PIC,
he doesn't need to be current. If I am wrong, please give me the
specific regulation that supports what you say.

If a pilot wants to act as PIC while an instructor gets his landings current,
that is another matter. As long as the pilot is qualified to act as PIC then
he can do so for the benefit of the instructor. You let the instructor get
current on his landings, then the instructor starts giving instruction for
the insurance check ride. That is done all the time.

I hate bottom posting... but..

"Skidder" wrote in message
...
On 3/7/2007 7:15:18 PM, "Tony" wrote:
Someone is the pilot in command, and he is not current. He may not
carry a PX. Kick the other guy out, do your three landings to a full
stop.

Now even though you're current, he is not, is he? So you stand around
while he makes himself whole in the eyes of the FAA.

Now go forth and sin no more!



Can you bottom post, and quote a reference in the regs??

--
Skidder

61.57, PIC needs 3 landings in 90 days to carry pax

neither one of you has 3 landings.. neither one of you can be PIC

one is a PAX, the other is PIC, non current PIC cannot carry PAX

go solo.

As for second pilot... to "act as PIC" when not at the controls, the
aircraft must require a second pilot.
Unless he is under the hood for his touch and goes, the aircraft does not
require a second pilot to ACT as PIC.

He needs to go solo too... other wise, who ever flew first and is now
current, is really only only a PAX as a second pilot is not required in this
situation. (assuming ASEL)

second pilot goes solo

BT


"Skidder" wrote in message
...
On 3/7/2007 7:10:07 PM, "Skidder" wrote:
As we all know, you can't carry a passenger unless you are current. But if
two pilots get in an aircraft with dual controls, can either of them
really
be considered a passenger? You can log PIC from either seat.

Lets say, I have a PPL but am not current. My best friend has a PPL but is
not current. Both of us have a current medical? Is it legal for both of us
to
get in an aircraft with dual controls, at the same time, shoot 6 take offs
and landings, 3 each, and log ourselves as current and split the flying
time
in our logs?

Would be both absolutely have to have a current medical?

He is an attorney and says the way he reads the regs, that it's not
exactly
clear. I myself don't know, but thought the group might enjoy debating the
question.

Along the same lines, if a PPL *is* current. Can he go for insurance check
ride with an instructor that is not, or doesn't have a current medilcal?



Ok, first things first, I am not a troll, and this is a very legitimate
question that could be applicable to lots of flyers.

Second, were all over the place here. MEIs, seaplanes, instructor without
medicals, you can't be PIC unless you are current (who's pic when you do
your
currency work), ......sheesh guys let's keep our eyes on the ball.

You have two pilots, dual controls, both have full control of the
aircraft.
To simplify more, let's say they both have current medicals, and have
logged
at least 100 hours in this specific aircraft in the past. It's just been
95
days since each have flown.

What in the regs states that, a pilot with a full set of controls in front
of
him, must be considered a passenger, just because someone else is flying
the
plane.

It's a fair question, and I can't find a clear answer in the regs. But I'm
not a book worm either. I was just hoping there was enough experience
*with
the regs* somewhere in this group, to locate a definitive answer.


--
Skidder

I think there is a reg that says if the crew position is not required, the
person is a pax.

I've never seen one. Has anyone else?

For example a non-current person can be a safety pilot for
practicing IFR. Just because the plane has dual controls, it doesn't mean
the airplane requires a second it command.

I don't think it would have to. The regs don't specify which side of the
plane have to you sit on, when you log your tuch and gos.




--
Skidder

It doesn't matter who's flying the airplane and it doesn't
matter who is in which seat, the non-PIC will be considered a pax.


What reg establishes this?



In your scenario, none of the pilots is qualified to ACT as PIC of a
flight with a pax (i.e. an individual who is not the PIC or required
crewmember), per 61.57 (1). so the flight cannot be conducted. Even in
an aircraft where there is a required crewmember the PIC has to be
current as well (also per 61.57 (1))

Not until we find a reg that stipulates the second pilot is a pax.

--
Skidder