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midair in Bay Area Nov 7



 
 
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  #41  
Old November 18th 20, 05:12 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Moshe Braner
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Posts: 114
Default midair in Bay Area Nov 7

On 11/17/2020 12:01 PM, Ramy wrote:
On Tuesday, November 17, 2020 at 8:06:00 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
On 11/16/20 6:10 PM, Ramy wrote:
One of the flarms was inop due to expired firmware.

I wonder how many personal injury attorneys saw that statement...

--
Dan
5J

Flarm is voluntary installation after all.
The pilot with the operating flarm was not injured.
The point here is not to put blame.
Every year I hear of multiple expired firmwares, including that very same day he wasn’t the only one.
There is an awareness and confusion issue which we need to address.
I am planning to always have the latest firmware on a USB stick with me (without my config file!) and periodically ask my buddies at the airport if they upgraded the firmware this year, if not, will upgrade it for them on the spot.

Ramy


You're saying "The pilot with the operating flarm was not injured" - as
if it's the out of date firmware that caused the other pilot to be
injured after bailing out?

The device was disabled by the manufacturer leading to one injury and
two lost gliders. Not causing, but contributing to the likelihood of
that collision. For no good reason.
  #42  
Old November 18th 20, 10:47 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Steve Thompson[_2_]
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Posts: 21
Default midair in Bay Area Nov 7

At 13:46 17 November 2020, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Guy Acheson wrote on 11/16/2020 7:19 PM:
OK...I am ready to get flamed.
I have flown with a PowerFlarm for several years.
False alarms. Searching frantically for aircraft that I just never see

or do not exist.
Flying with a group, all with Flarm, and several do not show on my

screen
because they have carbon fuselages and antennas that are blocked.
Flying head to head with another Flarm aircraft and no display.
Having other pilots inform me that they saw my plane on their screens

when I was not flying...multiple times!
The programing and configuration issues are just too much.
My system is updated and confirmed with and by experts.
But, most are not.
For me, it has not been a dependable, reliable, predictable piece of

equipment.
My experiences in France have been much better.
My understanding is that those systems are overseen/verified/inspected

by
aircraft mechanics.
Here in the USA...the Flarm system mostly increases my anxiety and

complicates my flying day.

It is unfortunate that your experience with Flarm is so poor. I have

flown
with Flarm for many
years and ...

-essentially no false alarms: there is always a glider there when I have

an
alarm.
-when flying in a "group" (which I think means gliders less than a mile
away, going the same
direction and thermalling together) all the gliders always show on my
Flarm. Most of them are
carbon gliders.
-Head to Head: the other glider always shows (my antennas are in the

nose,
so forward is the best)
-I programed it once and used it that way for years, still do
-I update it once a year, it's easy (I do have read the instructions each
time)

I have no explanation for why our experiences are so different, but I

think
your experience is
extreme. Perhaps your installation is much of the problem, and it should

be
reviewed by a
different expert, even a pilot with experience using several systems.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email
me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"

https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...oad-the-guide-

1

fwiw I agree 100% with Eric Greenwell's comment...and especially that
proper installation and checking performance is essential.

  #43  
Old November 18th 20, 01:35 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tango Eight
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Posts: 962
Default midair in Bay Area Nov 7

On Tuesday, November 17, 2020 at 9:17:51 PM UTC-5, Ramy wrote:
On Tuesday, November 17, 2020 at 9:47:43 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Tuesday, November 17, 2020 at 12:37:32 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
My biggest complaint with Flarm is that ,when flying along with a friend
a hundred or so yards apart, co-altitude and not in any danger of a
collision, the thing screams continuously about an imminent threat.

Add to your configuration file:

# set competition mode (ON = 2, OFF = 0)
$PFLAC,S,CFLAGS,2

Enjoy. You're welcome. Read flarm docs for details.

T8

Many flarm displays allows you to configure low, medium, high for collision. I never have false alarms as mine is configured to high. I only get alarm when I should. I do not recommend competition mode unless you fly comp.

Ramy


I have no idea what you mean when you say "mine is configured to high". In my experience, all one can do at the display is suppress one or two of the three alarm states. Competition mode preserves all three alarm states, but eliminates nuisance alarms of the type that Dan describes, which is why I made the recommendation. It's my standard mode of operation.

I don't think suppressing alarms in 'normal mode' is a good solution to this problem because it reduces warning time for all encounters, including the head on scenario under discussion. Competition mode doesn't appear to have any adverse effect on how flarm works during a head on encounter. (It would be great if a knowledgeable Flarm insider could comment on this).

best,
T8
  #44  
Old November 18th 20, 02:16 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tango Whisky
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 402
Default midair in Bay Area Nov 7

Le mercredi 18 novembre 2020 Ă* 05:11:13 UTC+1, Moshe Braner a Ă©critÂ*:

You're saying "The pilot with the operating flarm was not injured" - as
if it's the out of date firmware that caused the other pilot to be
injured after bailing out?

The device was disabled by the manufacturer leading to one injury and
two lost gliders. Not causing, but contributing to the likelihood of
that collision. For no good reason.


What's wrong with reading the manual and acting accordingly?
  #45  
Old November 18th 20, 02:20 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Me
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 17
Default midair in Bay Area Nov 7

On Tuesday, November 17, 2020 at 11:02:01 AM UTC-6, Ramy wrote:
On Tuesday, November 17, 2020 at 8:06:00 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
On 11/16/20 6:10 PM, Ramy wrote:
One of the flarms was inop due to expired firmware.

I wonder how many personal injury attorneys saw that statement...

--
Dan
5J

Flarm is voluntary installation after all.
The pilot with the operating flarm was not injured.
The point here is not to put blame.
Every year I hear of multiple expired firmwares, including that very same day he wasn’t the only one.
There is an awareness and confusion issue which we need to address.
I am planning to always have the latest firmware on a USB stick with me (without my config file!) and periodically ask my buddies at the airport if they upgraded the firmware this year, if not, will upgrade it for them on the spot.

Ramy


Great idea. I've gridded with numerous people in the previous two years that knowingly took off with their flarm not working. One was during a flarm mandatory event. Super annoying. Updating the firmware is far less annoying.
  #46  
Old November 18th 20, 02:24 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Me
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 17
Default midair in Bay Area Nov 7

On Monday, November 16, 2020 at 10:03:10 PM UTC-6, Gregg Ballou wrote:
Have there been any glider mid airs in the last few years where the gliders didn't have Flarm?


There's also a lot more car crashes with seat belts these days.
  #47  
Old November 18th 20, 03:18 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Eric Greenwell[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,939
Default midair in Bay Area Nov 7

Moshe Braner wrote on 11/17/2020 8:12 PM:
On 11/17/2020 12:01 PM, Ramy wrote:
On Tuesday, November 17, 2020 at 8:06:00 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
On 11/16/20 6:10 PM, Ramy wrote:
One of the flarms was inop due to expired firmware.
I wonder how many personal injury attorneys saw that statement...

--
Dan
5J

Flarm is voluntary installation after all.
The pilot with* the operating flarm was not injured.
The point here is not to put blame.
Every year I hear of multiple expired firmwares, including that very same day he wasn’t the
only one.
There is an awareness and confusion issue which we need to address.
I am planning to always have the latest firmware on a USB stick with me (without my config
file!) and periodically ask my buddies at the airport if they upgraded the firmware this
year, if not, will upgrade it for them on the spot.

Ramy


You're saying "The pilot with the operating flarm was not injured" - as if it's the out of date
firmware that caused the other pilot to be injured after bailing out?

The device was disabled by the manufacturer leading to one injury and two lost gliders.* Not
causing, but contributing to the likelihood of that collision.* For no good reason.


How long should a unit be allowed to go beyond a year without updating? one month? One year? 10
years? You are suggesting that units with newer versions must recognize the version of other
Flarms and compensate for their reduced functionality, giving us a system that is not operating
as well as it could - which reduces our safety.

Eventually, older versions must be updated. You accept this when you install it, and it can
easily be part of your annual inspection. If you have a Flarm compatible display, it will
announce the need for the update; if you choose a non-compatible display, it is your
responsibility to remember when to update. This is no different than expecting pilots to update
their charts and check for NOTAMS.

Perhaps every Flarm unit should have a loud, annoying buzzer that activates at the end of the
first flight with outdated firmware :^) In the meantime, Ramy's "Johnny Appleseed" approach
and reminders at contests and camps are worthwhile efforts.


--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

  #48  
Old November 18th 20, 03:27 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Martin Gregorie[_6_]
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Posts: 699
Default midair in Bay Area Nov 7

On Wed, 18 Nov 2020 05:24:27 -0800, Me wrote:

On Monday, November 16, 2020 at 10:03:10 PM UTC-6, Gregg Ballou wrote:
Have there been any glider mid airs in the last few years where the
gliders didn't have Flarm?


There's also a lot more car crashes with seat belts these days.


Seat belts don't warn the driver of possible car crashes - they only make
them more survivable.

FLARM is not remotely equivalent to a seat-belt.


--
--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

  #49  
Old November 18th 20, 03:52 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Moshe Braner
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 114
Default midair in Bay Area Nov 7

On 11/18/2020 9:18 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Moshe Braner wrote on 11/17/2020 8:12 PM:
...


How long should a unit be allowed to go beyond a year without updating?
one month? One year? 10 years? You are suggesting that units with newer
versions must recognize the version of other Flarms and compensate for
their reduced functionality, giving us a system that is not operating as
well as it could - which reduces our safety.

Eventually, older versions must be updated. You accept this when you
install it, and it can easily be part of your annual inspection. If you
have a Flarm compatible display, it will announce the need for the
update; if you choose a non-compatible display, it is your
responsibility to remember when to update. This is no different than
expecting pilots to update their charts and check for NOTAMS.

Perhaps every Flarm unit should have a loud, annoying buzzer that
activates at the end of the first flight with outdated firmware :^)Â* In
the meantime, Ramy's "Johnny Appleseed" approach and reminders at
contests and camps are worthwhile efforts.


AFAIK, the FLARM units transmit position reports in the blind, and there
is no reason they should stop doing that if the firmware is old. On the
receiving side, they need to interpret the data packets that come in.
As long as they can understand those packets, they should use them.

As I mentioned in my other posting, at any given moment some
properly-updated FLARM units have firmware that is up to a year older
than others. Perhaps even a larger gap, since when you "update" it you
get some version of the firmware from the FLARM web site, that is
already some months old. Last spring we were told to use an older
version 6.8.x for PowerFLARM since the latest version 7.x had some bug.

And my guess (would love to hear from those who really know) is that the
data packets themselves have not changed in some years, even as the
algorithms the unit uses to predict which ones represent a collision
hazard have improved. Yet another reason why a unit with older firmware
should keep on operating.

Of course one should do the firmware updates, but what upsets me is the
unit refusing to operate at all if you don't. Like I said, it should
instead give some sort of semi-annoying reminder, like an occasional sound.
  #50  
Old November 18th 20, 04:23 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Ramy[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 601
Default midair in Bay Area Nov 7

On Wednesday, November 18, 2020 at 6:51:21 AM UTC-8, Moshe Braner wrote:
On 11/18/2020 9:18 AM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Moshe Braner wrote on 11/17/2020 8:12 PM:
...


How long should a unit be allowed to go beyond a year without updating?
one month? One year? 10 years? You are suggesting that units with newer
versions must recognize the version of other Flarms and compensate for
their reduced functionality, giving us a system that is not operating as
well as it could - which reduces our safety.

Eventually, older versions must be updated. You accept this when you
install it, and it can easily be part of your annual inspection. If you
have a Flarm compatible display, it will announce the need for the
update; if you choose a non-compatible display, it is your
responsibility to remember when to update. This is no different than
expecting pilots to update their charts and check for NOTAMS.

Perhaps every Flarm unit should have a loud, annoying buzzer that
activates at the end of the first flight with outdated firmware :^) In
the meantime, Ramy's "Johnny Appleseed" approach and reminders at
contests and camps are worthwhile efforts.

AFAIK, the FLARM units transmit position reports in the blind, and there
is no reason they should stop doing that if the firmware is old. On the
receiving side, they need to interpret the data packets that come in.
As long as they can understand those packets, they should use them.

As I mentioned in my other posting, at any given moment some
properly-updated FLARM units have firmware that is up to a year older
than others. Perhaps even a larger gap, since when you "update" it you
get some version of the firmware from the FLARM web site, that is
already some months old. Last spring we were told to use an older
version 6.8.x for PowerFLARM since the latest version 7.x had some bug.

And my guess (would love to hear from those who really know) is that the
data packets themselves have not changed in some years, even as the
algorithms the unit uses to predict which ones represent a collision
hazard have improved. Yet another reason why a unit with older firmware
should keep on operating.

Of course one should do the firmware updates, but what upsets me is the
unit refusing to operate at all if you don't. Like I said, it should
instead give some sort of semi-annoying reminder, like an occasional sound.


I requested the same from Flarm team. I am hoping they will come up with a better solution.

Ramy
 




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