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  #11  
Old February 11th 20, 07:09 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Bob Kuykendall
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Posts: 1,345
Default On Electric Aircraft

On Tuesday, February 11, 2020 at 5:15:04 AM UTC-8, Tim Newport-Peace wrote:

Not Quite True.
Since a charged battery contains a greater total amount of energy than a
dead battery, the earth's gravity will pull more strongly on it.
But you will have trouble measuring the difference ;¬))


But seriously, no. Energy in and of itself has no mass. A an old-time watch or windup toy has the same mass regardless of whether it is wound or unwound.
  #12  
Old February 11th 20, 07:16 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Bob Kuykendall
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Default On Electric Aircraft

On Tuesday, February 11, 2020 at 4:33:26 AM UTC-8, Martin Gregorie wrote:

..The one thing we both missed, though is that a good brushless motor plus
its controller will be a lighter and smaller than the equivalent ICE
piston engine driving a propeller...


Not only that, but it delivers smoother power with less vibration, delivers it the moment it is started, requires less service infrastructure (starting, lubrication, cooling, exhaust, etc), and can easily be positioned for stowage. It runs cleaner and cooler and more predictably under a wider range of conditions, and is more easily monitored for performance and troubleshooting.

--Bob K.



  #13  
Old February 11th 20, 07:23 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Martin Gregorie[_6_]
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Posts: 699
Default On Electric Aircraft

On Tue, 11 Feb 2020 10:09:18 -0800, Bob Kuykendall wrote:

On Tuesday, February 11, 2020 at 5:15:04 AM UTC-8, Tim Newport-Peace
wrote:

Not Quite True.
Since a charged battery contains a greater total amount of energy than
a dead battery, the earth's gravity will pull more strongly on it.
But you will have trouble measuring the difference ;¬))


But seriously, no. Energy in and of itself has no mass. A an old-time
watch or windup toy has the same mass regardless of whether it is wound
or unwound.


....but an electron does have mass, just not very much:
9.1093837015 × 10^-31 kg

Not that it matters, because as many electrons flow into a discharging
battery as flow out.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

  #14  
Old February 11th 20, 07:34 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Martin Gregorie[_6_]
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Posts: 699
Default On Electric Aircraft

On Tue, 11 Feb 2020 10:16:45 -0800, Bob Kuykendall wrote:

On Tuesday, February 11, 2020 at 4:33:26 AM UTC-8, Martin Gregorie
wrote:

..The one thing we both missed, though is that a good brushless motor
plus its controller will be a lighter and smaller than the equivalent
ICE piston engine driving a propeller...


Not only that, but it delivers smoother power with less vibration,
delivers it the moment it is started, requires less service
infrastructure (starting, lubrication, cooling, exhaust, etc), and can
easily be positioned for stowage. It runs cleaner and cooler and more
predictably under a wider range of conditions, and is more easily
monitored for performance and troubleshooting.

Another thing, but this probably doesn't affect us much: a brushless
motor, which all these units are, has its rpm set primarily by the rate
at which the controller switches power round its (static) field coils
and, when driving a propeller, isn't much affected by the load its
working against. Its one reason electric brushless motors are popular
with the RC and CL aerobatic crowd - the nearly constant RPM causes
airspeed on uplines and downlines to be more constant than it ever was
with IC engines.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

  #15  
Old February 11th 20, 07:56 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Marotta
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Posts: 4,601
Default On Electric Aircraft

And who outside of the media did not understand that?

On 2/10/2020 3:28 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
kinsell wrote on 2/10/2020 7:59 AM:
On 2/10/20 8:43 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
A couple of very good perspectives HERE
https://www.avweb.com/features/reader-mail/top-letters-and-comments-february-7-2020/?MailingID=280&utm_source=ActiveCampaign&utm_mediu m=email&utm_content=Bryant+Crash+Prelim%2C+Drone+C ertification+NPRM&utm_campaign=Bryant+Crash+Prelim %2C+Drone+Certification+NPRM-Monday+February+10%2C+2020.


Let the flames begin...
--
Dan, 5J


Yep.Â* Came across an article from COPA (Canadian Owners and Pilot's
Association) filling in some the the details of the Harbour Air
plane. It was so stuffed full of batteries there was hardly any
useful load left.Â* Which puts it more in the category of publicity
stunt than a serious attempt to develop an electric plane.Â* And of
course calling it the first all-electric commercial aircraft is
disingenuous in the extreme.


https://copanational.org/en/2019/12/...zQBJD3aCPb93FA

The article made clear it's _test_ plane, not prototype for the
commercial version. That version will use a different chemistry Li
battery that is significantly lighter.

"The flight was not in a commercial aircraft in the sense that it was
certified to carry passengers – it is a prototype used in the
certification process. As such, the flight was made for ‘proof of
concept’ purposes only."



--
Dan, 5J
  #16  
Old February 11th 20, 08:32 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Marotta
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Posts: 4,601
Default On Electric Aircraft

What a wonderful way to spend a snowy morning, discussing the weight of
a full versus an empty battery!

What if we talked in terms of mass instead of weight? :-D

Seriously, I got a lot of entertainment after the thread went off topic
as is so normal with RASicrucians.Â* I especially liked the comparison
that Bob made of a wound versus unwound watch or toy. I've been banging
my head against the wall trying to see that in the context of the Laws
of Conservation of Matter and Energy.

More coffee is in order...

On 2/11/2020 11:34 AM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Tue, 11 Feb 2020 10:16:45 -0800, Bob Kuykendall wrote:

On Tuesday, February 11, 2020 at 4:33:26 AM UTC-8, Martin Gregorie
wrote:

..The one thing we both missed, though is that a good brushless motor
plus its controller will be a lighter and smaller than the equivalent
ICE piston engine driving a propeller...

Not only that, but it delivers smoother power with less vibration,
delivers it the moment it is started, requires less service
infrastructure (starting, lubrication, cooling, exhaust, etc), and can
easily be positioned for stowage. It runs cleaner and cooler and more
predictably under a wider range of conditions, and is more easily
monitored for performance and troubleshooting.

Another thing, but this probably doesn't affect us much: a brushless
motor, which all these units are, has its rpm set primarily by the rate
at which the controller switches power round its (static) field coils
and, when driving a propeller, isn't much affected by the load its
working against. Its one reason electric brushless motors are popular
with the RC and CL aerobatic crowd - the nearly constant RPM causes
airspeed on uplines and downlines to be more constant than it ever was
with IC engines.



--
Dan, 5J
  #17  
Old February 12th 20, 06:19 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tango Whisky
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Posts: 402
Default On Electric Aircraft

You mean that a glider hs a higher mass after releasing from tow because you added potential energy??
  #18  
Old February 12th 20, 07:14 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
kinsell
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Posts: 546
Default On Electric Aircraft


Ummm, the COPA article is not the message that Harbour Air and Magnix
have been putting out.

This is representative of the story they tell, indicating the prototype
is ready for certification:

https://www.flightglobal.com/airline...135711.article

And yes, there's lots of people not associated with aviation that are
being mislead by this.

-Dave





On 2/11/20 11:56 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
And who outside of the media did not understand that?

On 2/10/2020 3:28 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
kinsell wrote on 2/10/2020 7:59 AM:
On 2/10/20 8:43 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
A couple of very good perspectives HERE
https://www.avweb.com/features/reader-mail/top-letters-and-comments-february-7-2020/?MailingID=280&utm_source=ActiveCampaign&utm_mediu m=email&utm_content=Bryant+Crash+Prelim%2C+Drone+C ertification+NPRM&utm_campaign=Bryant+Crash+Prelim %2C+Drone+Certification+NPRM-Monday+February+10%2C+2020.


Let the flames begin...
--
Dan, 5J

Yep.Â* Came across an article from COPA (Canadian Owners and Pilot's
Association) filling in some the the details of the Harbour Air
plane. It was so stuffed full of batteries there was hardly any
useful load left.Â* Which puts it more in the category of publicity
stunt than a serious attempt to develop an electric plane.Â* And of
course calling it the first all-electric commercial aircraft is
disingenuous in the extreme.


https://copanational.org/en/2019/12/...zQBJD3aCPb93FA

The article made clear it's _test_ plane, not prototype for the
commercial version. That version will use a different chemistry Li
battery that is significantly lighter.

"The flight was not in a commercial aircraft in the sense that it was
certified to carry passengers – it is a prototype used in the
certification process. As such, the flight was made for ‘proof of
concept’ purposes only."




 




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