US Rules change needed for devaluation of contest day

I just looked at the four 2014 rulebooks on the SSA site; sports regional, FAI regional, sports nationals and FAI nationals.

ONLY the regional rulebooks has the WDSA provision. I did this by searching for WDSA.

The WDSA provision is available for regional events on a class by class by class basis, In WINSCORE when defining the class you choose the WDSA option.

i would like to see more events try this. If I CD a regional event in 2015 I will push for it.

Ron

Yes, most rules only become available for nationals after they've been tried at regionals. So this rule present in regional but not national rules is a feature not a bug
John Cochrane

On Saturday, August 23, 2014 8:28:59 PM UTC-7, Evan Ludeman wrote:

If the goal is to broaden the appeal for entry level or "recreational" competition guys, how about making it a Sports Class thing?

-Evan Ludeman / T8

It is available for Sports Class - as well as FAI Classes - at Regionals. Since the rule is optional and class-by-class, there isn't really a reason to add the complexity of restricting it to certain classes, or certain situations.

Being knocked out of a contest on a single day is something that pilots talk about at all levels. Broadening the appeal of racing is A goal of Regionals, but of course not THE ONLY goal and can apply at Sports Class as well as other classes. People might feel differently about the rule at higher pilot experience levels. If it's not wanted in a particular class it's not required.

While drop a day might be interesting, it doesn't really apply in my mind for fixing what we encountered the last day of Nephi. Many of us truly could not get high enough to get out on course and have any kind of fighting chance to fly the task. The thunderstorm that swept through killed that for 80%+ of us in the last class to launch.

I took 3 tows just to make sure I gave it every possible effort to get up and out. Ron (CD) did a great job on the ground making some hard decisions with little info or time to decide and he sure tried for everyone to get a chance to fly. He then did a great job in analyzing the protest and flight data from everyone and made the right call for throwing out the day in my opinion. Yes, there is a new protest on the throwing out the day, so who knows what the final outcome is, but I firmly believe it should be discarded.

I think drop a day has its place but not for days where 80%+ of the class can't even get up high enough to get out on course after trying for hours to get up...

Bruno - B4

I Posted on Aug. 21 that I disagreed with TT on the need for what the Title of this Thread is; "US Rules change needed for devaluation of Contest Day"

I take that back. After consulting with my handler, my advisers and their staff I have come to the conclusion that TT is 100% correct.
Cochrane states that devaluation is a mess and I believe him, but now I'm thinking that the scoring formula needs to be tweaked to address these situations that happened at Moriarty and Nephi.
Moriarty was bizarre and opened my eyes wide.
Nephi was a nature induced tough day that they are still trying to sort out.

On Sunday, August 24, 2014 5:25:57 PM UTC-7, Nick Kennedy wrote:
I Posted on Aug. 21 that I disagreed with TT on the need for what the Title of this Thread is; "US Rules change needed for devaluation of Contest Day"



I take that back. After consulting with my handler, my advisers and their staff I have come to the conclusion that TT is 100% correct.

Cochrane states that devaluation is a mess and I believe him, but now I'm thinking that the scoring formula needs to be tweaked to address these situations that happened at Moriarty and Nephi.

Moriarty was bizarre and opened my eyes wide.

Nephi was a nature induced tough day that they are still trying to sort out.

It can be handled with a protest but protests are a pain in the neck.

Nephi staff is Still dealing with this! It's not like they are getting paid to do so.

Putting more burden on a CD see the future isn't right. We can't put all the responsibility on the CD.



So as the rules stand right now I figured out; that, If you can get away, by yourself and get out on task, you can get 1000 pts. And the rest of the gang can get 0 pts. This happened at Moriarty.

Maybe; if someone does not protest that they did not have fair chance to compete. This precedent, [ I'm sure not the first time ] was set at Parowan several years ago and it soured a bunch of people on that protest ruling; They threw out they day, a good day, where a guy was towed into the start area, did not connect and landed, we all split and had a very good, fun, safe day flying a good task call.

He felt that he did not have a fair chance to compete and protested. They threw out the day.

Pilots were so ticked; at least one old heavy hitter packed up and left.

Was it right or wrong? I don't know.

So my point is; Protests can be hard on the CD, Staff and the competitors.



In summary I would like to look at tweaking the scoring formula to devalue a day like the ones above and I support using the WDSA rule and would support a regional event that used it.

In closing I do not feel any rule change would change anyone's mind about entering regional level competition for the first time. As we found out this year several newbies didn't even read the rulebook. And some guys with SSA competition experience also pulled a couple of major whoops. We all had tons of fun thou still.

With all due Respect

Nick Kennedy

Nick makes a good point that is generally known to the RC: It is frequently the case that contest organizers don't want to tick people off by meddling with the flying during or after the fact and pilots are loath to protest unless things have really gone to hell. Protests take up additional time and physical/emotional energy that only the highly dedicated supporters of the sport are willing to endure. We'd love to spare them this burden.

That said, it is often very challenge to construct rules that deal with all the difference circumstances that come up in a way that is not overly complex or intrusive. We all want races to be fair, competitive and enjoyable - more or less in that order.

It will be a lively discussion this fall at the RC meeting. I expect a few of you who were directly involved in some of these incidents will be asked to contribute your observations about some of the important details. When that happens remember, it's for a good cause.

Andy Blackburn, 9B

In summary I would like to look at tweaking the scoring formula to devalue a day like the ones above and I support using the WDSA rule and would support a regional event that used it.

Nick Kennedy


I think we would welcome concrete proposals of exactly how you'd change -- proposals that showed understanding the current rules and the many situations they were evolved to cope with. "Competitor" got defined up from anyone taking a tow, after a similar string of unhappy results, which we don't want to go back to.

For the moment, my view is that we should include anyone who lands out before the start as "competitor." Otherwise, I can't think of a tweak (other than worst day score adjustment) that gives whatever the desired outcome is here, without screwing up the other days for which this rule was designed.

A big review and simplification of devaluation is in order, but nothing on my mind in that regard will help here. Remember in your proposals how much everyone wants simplicity and transparency, and how little anyone understands the current rules!

John Cochrane

On Sunday, August 24, 2014 3:31:29 PM UTC-7, wrote:
While drop a day might be interesting, it doesn't really apply in my mind for fixing what we encountered the last day of Nephi. Many of us truly could not get high enough to get out on course and have any kind of fighting chance to fly the task. The thunderstorm that swept through killed that for 80%+ of us in the last class to launch.



I took 3 tows just to make sure I gave it every possible effort to get up and out. Ron (CD) did a great job on the ground making some hard decisions with little info or time to decide and he sure tried for everyone to get a chance to fly. He then did a great job in analyzing the protest and flight data from everyone and made the right call for throwing out the day in my opinion. Yes, there is a new protest on the throwing out the day, so who knows what the final outcome is, but I firmly believe it should be discarded..



I think drop a day has its place but not for days where 80%+ of the class can't even get up high enough to get out on course after trying for hours to get up...



Bruno - B4

Bruno, why don't you think the Worst Day Adjustment rule would handle the situation on the last day at Nephi? It seems to me adopting 11.4.4 would have covered this well, without requiring other changes to rules such as the definition of a competitor (as John points out there are reasons that "Competitor" is defined as it currently is), or devaluation formulas.

As for the validity of the day, IMO 11.1.3 is clear that the day was valid. There is no requirement in the rules that a certain percentage of entrants be able to get a start.

On Monday, August 25, 2014 5:02:51 AM UTC-6, John Cochrane wrote:


In summary I would like to look at tweaking the scoring formula to devalue a day like the ones above and I support using the WDSA rule and would support a regional event that used it.



Nick Kennedy





I think we would welcome concrete proposals of exactly how you'd change -- proposals that showed understanding the current rules and the many situations they were evolved to cope with. "Competitor" got defined up from anyone taking a tow, after a similar string of unhappy results, which we don't want to go back to.



For the moment, my view is that we should include anyone who lands out before the start as "competitor." Otherwise, I can't think of a tweak (other than worst day score adjustment) that gives whatever the desired outcome is here, without screwing up the other days for which this rule was designed.



A big review and simplification of devaluation is in order, but nothing on my mind in that regard will help here. Remember in your proposals how much everyone wants simplicity and transparency, and how little anyone understands the current rules!



John Cochrane

This would mean allow devaluation after 20% non completion.

Maximum Speed Points:
‡
MSP = STF * (1250 * SCR) (but not greater than STF * 1000)

Scored completion ratio:
‡
SCR = (Number of Finishers) / (Number of contestants)

Where a contestant is defined as any pilot that took a tow and turns in a valid flight log.

Requiring pilots to land out to be a contestant is too high of a bar. Why would we require them to land out if they are down to 1000 feet and have a good airport in reach? Often in the west the airport may be the only safe place to land if they can not get up to several thousand feet.

Tim

On Monday, 25 August 2014 13:17:39 UTC-6, Tim Taylor wrote:
On Monday, August 25, 2014 5:02:51 AM UTC-6, John Cochrane wrote:





In summary I would like to look at tweaking the scoring formula to devalue a day like the ones above and I support using the WDSA rule and would support a regional event that used it.







Nick Kennedy











I think we would welcome concrete proposals of exactly how you'd change -- proposals that showed understanding the current rules and the many situations they were evolved to cope with. "Competitor" got defined up from anyone taking a tow, after a similar string of unhappy results, which we don't want to go back to.







For the moment, my view is that we should include anyone who lands out before the start as "competitor." Otherwise, I can't think of a tweak (other than worst day score adjustment) that gives whatever the desired outcome is here, without screwing up the other days for which this rule was designed.







A big review and simplification of devaluation is in order, but nothing on my mind in that regard will help here. Remember in your proposals how much everyone wants simplicity and transparency, and how little anyone understands the current rules!







John Cochrane



This would mean allow devaluation after 20% non completion.



Maximum Speed Points:

‡

MSP = STF * (1250 * SCR) (but not greater than STF * 1000)



Scored completion ratio:

‡

SCR = (Number of Finishers) / (Number of contestants)



Where a contestant is defined as any pilot that took a tow and turns in a valid flight log.



Requiring pilots to land out to be a contestant is too high of a bar. Why would we require them to land out if they are down to 1000 feet and have a good airport in reach? Often in the west the airport may be the only safe place to land if they can not get up to several thousand feet.



Tim

Currently for FAI Class Regional Competition a contestant is defined as; A Contestant is a regular entrant whose Scored Distance (Rule 11.2.3) is greater than zero.

Are you proposing that the definition of a contestant be changed to '