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#21
May 5th 06, 10:27 PM
posted to rec.aviation.piloting
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Scared of mid-airs
On Fri, 05 May 2006 19:09:54 GMT, B A R R Y
wrote in :: Larry Dighera wrote: On Fri, 05 May 2006 17:40:18 GMT, B A R R Y wrote in :: Do you ask for traffic advisories or VFR flight following from ATC? I do on EVERY flight at an altitude that permits ATC to provide Radar Traffic Advisory Service. Same here, hence my asking... G I've been told by controllers that even they prefer that we ask for advisories, 'cause that makes one more aircraft talking to them and not squawking 1200 and flying in the space incommunicato. I even use them for sightseeing and practice (stalls, steep turns, etc...) flights. Only once have I been denied due to workload. Watch out with that heretical stance least the true believers in the Big Sky Theory characterize you a heathen. :-) 
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#22
May 5th 06, 11:23 PM
posted to rec.aviation.piloting
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Scared of mid-airs
Yes, I can speak from experience about the aircraft not moving in your
windscreen! I've been involved in a situation once where ATC pointed out this other aircraft, "N12345, traffic 1 mile, 10:00, indicates 4500" which happened to be MY altitude. I looked and saw it, was briefly mesmerized and then nosed down as quickly as I could! I think we had about 400-500 feet between us! Toooooo close for me! I'd always heard about the "it doesn't move" theory, but to see it in practice was a good thing to cement it in my brain...next time, a faster reaction!  AGREAT learning experience for me! It also cemented my belief in using flight following even more firmly! Chris G. And, yes, all is well since I am still here to tell about it. Guy Elden Jr wrote: My instructor always told me to look for an object in the sky that does not appear to be moving. If you see that, do something immediately, because you are dead-on a collision course.
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#23
May 5th 06, 11:42 PM
posted to rec.aviation.piloting
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Scared of mid-airs
Thanks to all that took time to answer!
I went flying after posting, and tried not to focus on the fear. It worked, but still sat in the back of my head. Don't think my scan went down though. I had a near miss once and The Netherlands. My wife and I took off in a rented Warrior from Groningen (EHGG) to fly to Oostende in Belgium (EBOS) A bit west of the EHGG control zone (don't remember how far west) there is class A airspace around Schiphol extending from 1500 feet and up. Thus, all spam cans, UL's etc were having a ball between 1000 and 1450 feet.... :-) i didn't see anyone until I could pick out the excact antenna formation on the belly of a C172 thet passed me direct overhead.... And I was scanning, but missed a portion at the wrong moment. I agree, A airspace from 1500 feet around Sciphol is not excactly the middle of nowhere, so that fact figures in. I have decided (for now) to avoid that area until I get my instrument rating, and can file IFR through that part.... Strange thing was the previous time I flew there, ATC was constantly calling out traffic to us VFR pilots on the Amsterdam info frequency (seperate from the class A frequency) I asked about traffic info after the near miss, and was told no radar service today.... The rest of our trip (to Cannes in southern France) was uneventful. Just saw a few sailplanes here and there, but they are generally easy to pick out with their huge white wingspans. Some might say it's madness to do a cross country from oslo to Cannes 10 days after getting the PPL, but I think that trip tought me more than I will ever appreciate about flying. Great experience! Anyway, thanks again for sharing. I feel better about the statistics, will still keep a good scan, but will not worry anymore. Bigger chance of being hit by a falling piano downtown I guess.... Frode "Larry Dighera" skrev i melding ... On Fri, 05 May 2006 19:09:54 GMT, B A R R Y wrote in :: Larry Dighera wrote: On Fri, 05 May 2006 17:40:18 GMT, B A R R Y wrote in :: Do you ask for traffic advisories or VFR flight following from ATC? I do on EVERY flight at an altitude that permits ATC to provide Radar Traffic Advisory Service. Same here, hence my asking... G I've been told by controllers that even they prefer that we ask for advisories, 'cause that makes one more aircraft talking to them and not squawking 1200 and flying in the space incommunicato. I even use them for sightseeing and practice (stalls, steep turns, etc...) flights. Only once have I been denied due to workload. Watch out with that heretical stance least the true believers in the Big Sky Theory characterize you a heathen. :-)
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#24
May 5th 06, 11:43 PM
posted to rec.aviation.piloting
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Scared of mid-airs
It's just the odds. The density of airplanes is a LOT smaller in areas
not near airports, airways, and VOR intersections. There is maybe one or two midairs a YEAR not near an airport (if that). I don't have the exact stastistics. But it is small. Near an airport, yes, there are more collilsions. But unfortunately (and I am NOT knocking them, I wish I had one), the devices that warn you against collision, although they work near airports, there are SO MANY planes nearby, you pretty much have to ignore it and use traditional techniques.
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#25
May 6th 06, 12:28 AM
posted to rec.aviation.piloting
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Scared of mid-airs
As an old environmental biology professor once said to me:
"Dilution is the solution to pollution". What are the chances of another aircraft occupying the exact same airspace at the exact same time as mine? Well, a mathematics professor will tell you - even a zero probability event can occur if you give it enough of a chance. (There is a zero probability that if you pick a random number from zero to one, you will pick 1/2. Nonetheless, that number =is= there, and it =can= be picked.) Jose -- The price of freedom is... well... freedom. for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
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#26
May 6th 06, 12:29 AM
posted to rec.aviation.piloting
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Scared of mid-airs
I have decided (for now) to avoid that area until I get my instrument
rating, and can file IFR through that part.... ....where you will still have to engage the Mark I eyeball. Jose -- The price of freedom is... well... freedom. for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
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#28
May 6th 06, 12:38 AM
posted to rec.aviation.piloting
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Scared of mid-airs
On Fri, 05 May 2006 21:17:02 GMT, "Mortimer Schnerd, RN"
wrote in :: Larry Dighera wrote: Please explain how the 'big sky theory' will PROTECT you from a MAC. Easy enough. As an old environmental biology professor once said to me: "Dilution is the solution to pollution". With all due respect, while that may be true for pollution, I don't believe it is applicable to PROTECTION from a MAC. What are the chances of another aircraft occupying the exact same airspace at the exact same time as mine? What are the chances of the cylinder containing a bullet? The only way a Russian Roulette participant can be PROTECTED from blowing his head off is if the cylinder is empty or the safety is on. Neither analogy is available to airmen; there are always aircraft in the NAS. That deems the 'big sky theory' irrelevant, in my opinion. The odds go way up near natural collecting points ... [Interesting antidotes snipped] What you describe has nothing to do with PROTECTION and everything to do with PROBABILITY. Thanks for the effort. My point is, that there is no PROTECTION; if there were, there wouldn't be any MACs. And the 'big sky theory' is a fallacy. It's akin to the Tooth Fairy, Easter Bunny, imaginary friends, ... Those who rely upon the 'big sky theory to PROTECT them from a MAC are playing Russian Roulette. ------------------- To further constrain the discussion of 'big sky theory,' here's a definition: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_sky_theory In aviation, the Big Sky Theory is that two randomly flying bodies will likely never collide, as the three dimensional space is so large relative to the bodies. Certain aviation safety rules are based on this concept. It does not apply (or applies less) when aircraft are flying along specific narrow routes, such as an airport traffic pattern. So the BST seems to have everything to do with probability, but very little to do with protecting, guaranteeing, or indemnifying against a MAC. Additionally, the BST is flawed in that (as defined) it fails to consider more than two aircraft in the air simultaneously.
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#29
May 6th 06, 01:11 AM
posted to rec.aviation.piloting
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Scared of mid-airs
Jose wrote: Well, a mathematics professor will tell you - even a zero probability event can occur if you give it enough of a chance. A mathematics professor will tell you that while there's not that much difference between an infinitesimally small probability and zero probability, there is a difference. The zero probability event can't occur. -R
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#30
May 6th 06, 01:29 AM
posted to rec.aviation.piloting
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Scared of mid-airs
Larry Dighera wrote:
[Interesting antidotes snipped] "Antidotes"? Well, I am a nurse. G What you describe has nothing to do with PROTECTION and everything to do with PROBABILITY. Thanks for the effort. My point is, that there is no PROTECTION; if there were, there wouldn't be any MACs. Then it would be best for you to stay on the ground. Probability has everything to do with my actions. I think about the probability of a good or bad outcome and act accordingly. If I was looking for certainty then I would do nothing. But I prefer to live a somewhat richer life than that. -- Mortimer Schnerd, RN VE
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