The truth about Flarm Stealth and Competition definition...

Ideally you'd like ID available at minimum for traffic with an active alarm so you can say "9B turn right" at a safe distance. Relative altitude data allows some sense of climb rate - with a little math.

However, others have argued that being able to see any glider circling at beyond visual range - especially when you really need a thermal to avoid an outlanding - irreparably harms the spirit of the sport. This view contends that finding another glider climbing should depend solely on the pilot's natural visual acuity (or ability to afford Lasik).

9B

9B,

Obviously you are trying to goad me on with that last comment. I'll bite.

Some of us still believe that looking at clouds and terrain, finding thermals yourself, is an important part of the sport. Throughout these threads this is still a lot of talk overstated talk about safety that is covering for what some folks really want, to buddy-fly their way around the race course..

BB has even said leading out is a losing strategy. Strange champions of the past were afraid to lead out. Is this the way we are heading?

FLARM with stealth as it is now really works well in a contest setting for collision avoidance. Those who claim otherwise have largely never tried it and/or want (need) to see others to make their way around the race course. Seems kind of weak-assed in my opinion.

Still waiting to hear what you think our sport should be about. You are on the RC. I'd like to know your vision on where we are going.

XC

Ideally you'd like ID available at minimum for traffic with an active alarm so you can say "9B turn right" at a safe distance. Relative altitude data allows some sense of climb rate - with a little math.

However, others have argued that being able to see any glider circling at beyond visual range - especially when you really need a thermal to avoid an outlanding - irreparably harms the spirit of the sport. This view contends that finding another glider climbing should depend solely on the pilot's natural visual acuity (or ability to afford Lasik).

9B

9B,

Obviously you are trying to goad me on with that last comment. I'll bite.

Some of us still believe that looking at clouds and terrain - finding thermals yourself, is an important part of the sport. Throughout these threads this is still a lot of overstated talk about safety that is covering for what some folks really want, to buddy-fly their way around the race course.

BB has even said leading out is a losing strategy. Strange, champions of the past weren't afraid to lead out. Is this the way we are heading?

FLARM with stealth as it is now really works well in a contest setting for collision avoidance. Those who claim otherwise have largely never tried it and/or want (in some cases need) to see others to make their way around the race course. Seems kind of weak-assed in my opinion.

Still waiting to hear what you think our sport should be about. You are on the RC. I'd like to know your vision for the future of the sport. Which parts should be keep that are essential to the sport?

Should we keep the part about not running a motor? Or should we begin to allow 2 five minutes periods of sustainer motor operation? That would be safer* yet and it would keep those who didn't get enough recent practice to stay higher up on the score sheet longer. Would that make for a better race?

XC

*Not sure sustainer motors have a good safety record compared to pure gliders.

Ideally you'd like ID available at minimum for traffic with an active alarm so you can say "9B turn right" at a safe distance. Relative altitude data allows some sense of climb rate - with a little math.

However, others have argued that being able to see any glider circling at beyond visual range - especially when you really need a thermal to avoid an outlanding - irreparably harms the spirit of the sport. This view contends that finding another glider climbing should depend solely on the pilot's natural visual acuity (or ability to afford Lasik).

9B

9B,

Obviously you are trying to goad me on with that last comment. I'll bite.

Some of us still believe that looking at clouds and terrain, finding thermals yourself, is an important part of the sport. Throughout these threads this is still a lot of talk overstated talk about safety that is covering for what some folks really want, to buddy-fly their way around the race course..

BB has even said leading out is a losing strategy. Strange, champions of the past weren't afraid to lead out. Is this the way we are heading?

FLARM with stealth as it is now really works well in a contest setting for collision avoidance. Those who claim otherwise have largely never tried it and/or want (need) to see others to make their way around the race course. Seems kind of weak-assed in my opinion.

Still waiting to hear what you think our sport should be about. You are on the RC. I'd like to know your vision on where we are going. What parts are essential to the sport?

Should we keep the part about not running a motor? Or should we allow folks to run their motors for 2 five minute periods? This would arguably be safer and those who maybe didn't get enough practice in could stay competitive on the score sheet longer. Still seems like an arbitrary limit, though.

I'd hate to limit engine technology. If we only allow 10 minutes of engine time they better count. I'd want to get some good performance out of my engine. All this too can be part of the undefined future of our sport.

XC

C'mon you Luddite! Why have a limit on engine run? This is not you granddad's soaring anymore. In fact, we should encourage the use of propulsion technology by mandating Front Electric Sustainer technology for all competitions at the National level. It's obviously all for SAFETY!

I also take great offense to the idea that the Luddites in the "peanut gallery", who should, after all, be keeping their little inconsequential mouths shut while the big boys are talking, might object to one of the most demonstrably enabling technologies of all time: performance enhancing drugs. Such pharmacological tech has proven time and again to be extremely effective at proving performance in conditions of high physical and mental stress. And now, the development of "nootropic" drugs offer a way to improve soaring safety dramatically through enhanced mental function in the cockpit. It would be little short of criminal to deny pilots such safety enhancing technology. Think of the liability issues if contest organizers elect to deny pilots this one chance at survival. Only those Luddite morons on the RC, oh, and the peanut gallery, would condone limiting this technology.

WB 😜

Wow man! Just Wow!

Safety concerns equal "weak-assed!" Yeah baby! Yes! Here we go. That's it Sean! Give into your feelings...let them flow....strike me down with all of your hate and give into the dark side..............Yes, yes!!! :-)

You know, you guys have been right all along...Flarm does mean that nobody ever finds a thermal on their own! We all just float around aimlessly, monitoring the screen, waiting for 10 knots to appear next to a blip on the ClearNav 10 miles ahead and just...head on over, mixing cocktails while singing along with the Sinatra channel on our XM radio.

"Fly me to the moon and let us dance among the stars.....". http://youtu.be/oCW9Hey6IVY. :-). We just whistle along and watch those "suckers" ahead of us aimlessly trying to do it the old fashioned way. Into the wind, and uphill both ways! Then, when we wear them out and they get frustrated, they'll inevitably do something stupid and we pass them inverted, while giving them the bird like in Top Gun! Yep. I personally haven't found a thermal since 2011.

This thread is now as ridiculous as it is awesome. Its almost better than actual watered down US OLC/HAT luck tasks! The rising level of paranoid, insecure and literal fantasy world accusations dealt out by the anti Flarm gang keep us all coming back for more. I honestly can't wait to hear what's next! My stomach actually hurts as I type this from laughing so hard with visions of the way "it is done" in my cockpit above...

"Fly me to the moon.......trumpet solo..... In other words........ baby kiss me..." Mixing perfect drinks, talking on my phone, with scouts calling in additional weather and data analysis from my private weather satellite. Sometimes I don't even notice that a have landed. Tiffany has to knock on the canopy is I sit inside oblivious to the outside evniornmemt. Yep, it's pretty spectacular what technology has done to our sport.

Man I love Frank Sinatra! And man-O-man how I love my secret minibar hidden in the armrest of the 29....http://onemileatatime.img.boardingar.../IMG_72351.jpg What do you think of the gold trim. Fantastic!

Yep, until Flarm, I had no idea how easy contest flying was. All I needed was a ClearNav, a secret/custom autopilot and my secret mini bar to give me something to do as I watched my cell phone. Soon I'll be World Champion! Oh wait a minute, damn, now without Flarm I probably can't even finish a task, I'm so poor at soaring. Same for 80% of us who hav come to completely rely on PowerFlarm. We won't know what to do now. We are all really WEAK ASSED.

And the thought of soaring without my minibar, what fun is that? Oh well. Time to take up golf.

Signed...one of XCs (stealth/comp/crazy mode fanboy 1) supposedly "weak assed" pilots...who fraudulently "pretends" he is concerned about safety...so he can mercilessly leech superior pilots...via Flarm, 10 miles behind, with my secret autopilot, my hidden minibar, and my co-pilot Mr. Frank Sinatra, even though all of my flight traces are publically available and prove this is ridiculous....and I know this because I take the time to study many flight traces (mine and many others)...and simply does not see any evidence of a Flarm leaching problem....wait, that's crazy talk. Sorry...

To the rest of you, I promise not to fly with my minibar anymore and will destroy my top secret Flarm slaved auto-pilot. Yep, Sean (XC, and the RC) got me, yet again!

C'mon you Luddite! Why have a limit on engine run? This is not you granddad's soaring anymore. In fact, we should encourage the use of propulsion technology by mandating Front Electric Sustainer technology for all competitions at the National level. It's obviously all for SAFETY!

I also take great offense to the idea that the Luddites in the "peanut gallery", who should, after all, be keeping their little inconsequential mouths shut while the big boys are talking, might object to one of the most demonstrably enabling technologies of all time: performance enhancing drugs. Such pharmacological tech has proven time and again to be extremely effective at proving performance in conditions of high physical and mental stress. And now, the development of "nootropic" drugs offer a way to improve soaring safety dramatically through enhanced mental function in the cockpit. It would be little short of criminal to deny pilots such safety enhancing technology. Think of the liability issues if contest organizers elect to deny pilots this one chance at survival. Only those Luddite morons on the RC, oh, and the peanut gallery, would condone limiting this technology.

WB 😜

I figured that weak-assed remark would get someone going. Let me try to tone it down and explain myself. Rules that drive racing pilots to a successful strategy of group-flying the task weaken the attractiveness and the meaningfulness of the sport.

In 34 years of flying gliders, I've scared myself a few times. I never thought the sport was hugely dangerous. If I did, I wouldn't be doing it and I wouldn't have let my daughter sign up for the club.

There are dangers though and the risk of midairs is one of them. I think we can agree midair collisions not the greatest risk in soaring. FLARM was developed along with a stealth mode to be used in competition. The system works pretty well based on our experience at Harris Hill and contests in Europe when it comes to reducing the risk of midairs while not encouraging group flying.

I still think the concerns about SA are overstated especially since the competition mode discussion is thinking about 5 km which is quite a bit given the slow speeds we fly and the fact that collision warnings are not included in this limit. I still don't see the a legitimate reason for displaying contest numbers other than following. The loudest opponents of FLARM with stealth or competition mode have never tried it.

Yes, think people are being dogmatic about this idea that all technology is good for our sport. Folks need to think a little more critically and that means deciding on a framework that provides a context for decision making about the future of the sport. Not just all technology is good and leading us in the right direction or the only direction.

So I'm sorry I set you off, Sean, with that weak-assed remark. I'm growing tired of this whole discussion and I guess it shows. Your a good pilot and will probably represent us on the US Team some day soon. Have been selected? I don't even know. Good luck to you either way. I hope you win the whole thing. My concern is that when you are crowned the national or world champion it won't be as meaningful as it once was because no one able to preserve the valued aspects of the sport.


XC

,

On Sunday, January 3, 2016 at 7:18:22 PM UTC-5, smfidler wrote:
Wow man! Just Wow!

Safety concerns equal "weak-assed!" Yeah baby! Yes! Here we go. That's it Sean! Give into your feelings...let them flow....strike me down with all of your hate and give into the dark side..............Yes, yes!!! :-)

You know, you guys have been right all along...Flarm does mean that nobody ever finds a thermal on their own! We all just float around aimlessly, monitoring the screen, waiting for 10 knots to appear next to a blip on the ClearNav 10 miles ahead and just...head on over, mixing cocktails while singing along with the Sinatra channel on our XM radio.

"Fly me to the moon and let us dance among the stars.....". http://youtu..be/oCW9Hey6IVY. :-). We just whistle along and watch those "suckers" ahead of us aimlessly trying to do it the old fashioned way. Into the wind, and uphill both ways! Then, when we wear them out and they get frustrated, they'll inevitably do something stupid and we pass them inverted, while giving them the bird like in Top Gun! Yep. I personally haven't found a thermal since 2011.

This thread is now as ridiculous as it is awesome. Its almost better than actual watered down US OLC/HAT luck tasks! The rising level of paranoid, insecure and literal fantasy world accusations dealt out by the anti Flarm gang keep us all coming back for more. I honestly can't wait to hear what's next! My stomach actually hurts as I type this from laughing so hard with visions of the way "it is done" in my cockpit above...

"Fly me to the moon.......trumpet solo..... In other words........ baby kiss me..." Mixing perfect drinks, talking on my phone, with scouts calling in additional weather and data analysis from my private weather satellite.. Sometimes I don't even notice that a have landed. Tiffany has to knock on the canopy is I sit inside oblivious to the outside evniornmemt. Yep, it's pretty spectacular what technology has done to our sport.

Man I love Frank Sinatra! And man-O-man how I love my secret minibar hidden in the armrest of the 29....http://onemileatatime.img.boardingar.../IMG_72351.jpg What do you think of the gold trim. Fantastic!

Yep, until Flarm, I had no idea how easy contest flying was. All I needed was a ClearNav, a secret/custom autopilot and my secret mini bar to give me something to do as I watched my cell phone. Soon I'll be World Champion! Oh wait a minute, damn, now without Flarm I probably can't even finish a task, I'm so poor at soaring. Same for 80% of us who hav come to completely rely on PowerFlarm. We won't know what to do now. We are all really WEAK ASSED.

And the thought of soaring without my minibar, what fun is that? Oh well.. Time to take up golf.

Signed...one of XCs (stealth/comp/crazy mode fanboy 1) supposedly "weak assed" pilots...who fraudulently "pretends" he is concerned about safety...so he can mercilessly leech superior pilots...via Flarm, 10 miles behind, with my secret autopilot, my hidden minibar, and my co-pilot Mr. Frank Sinatra, even though all of my flight traces are publically available and prove this is ridiculous....and I know this because I take the time to study many flight traces (mine and many others)...and simply does not see any evidence of a Flarm leaching problem....wait, that's crazy talk. Sorry...

To the rest of you, I promise not to fly with my minibar anymore and will destroy my top secret Flarm slaved auto-pilot. Yep, Sean (XC, and the RC) got me, yet again!

Sean (Fidler), whatever you're smoking, hope you brought enough for the rest of us.... (learned a long time ago in school....).

As stated before (in multiple threads/posts), this discussion (if you call it that) is NOT about reducing safety, it's "giving breathing room" to figure out new technology.
Granted, the FAA (in the USofA) may make it a moot point in a few years, but that does NOT belittle the current concern.

Same could be said for earlier tech that appeared, or, was determined it was needed.

Yes, I remember when "time date stamp" cameras were mandated because someone figured out how to do a "short course" but "document it" on film for a "declared course".....

Yes, call me old.

While the genie may be out of the bottle, I applaud multiple RC's to try and give some time to figure out what is needed/required to:

1-Promote safety (have not seen anything that is truly against that in the US).
2-"Make it fair & relative" for "contest flying" (I don't recall the SSA ever listing a "race schedule", only a "contest schedule" [figured I would close that comment thread here & now]).

As I linked before, I feel that the "current proposed SSA RC competition mode" is a decent compromise for the peeps that want more safety, but also limits some of the possible tactical advantage of "full open Flarm".

It's NOT just the US, it's other soaring governing bodies that want similar.. Hope some "pro full Flarm" peeps are "shaking the tree" on other sites around the world to show their dissatisfaction with the proposed rules direction across the globe.
You're not??!!, Why not!!, you know, the "whole safety in numbers across the globe" thang.....

Based on what I think the SSA RC is currently proposing (5KM limit) fits within the basics of what Flarm (you know, the people that actually MAKE & WRITE SOFTWARE FOR their device) are stating.

What, you want an engraved invitation to the party?

Am I talking over your head?

I feel the SSA RC is attempting to do a good compromise for NOW, who really gives a poop about 2020 until at least 2019?

Maybe someone can enlist Trump to make it part of his 2016 platform, not that it will happen.....

"I feel that the "current proposed SSA RC competition mode" is a decent compromise for the peeps that want more safety, but also limits some of the possible tactical advantage of "full open Flarm". "

Can you point me to specifications of this so called "competition" mode? What vapor ware are you talking about? The only thing that was voted on was "stealth" mode.

Let's stick to facts not wishes.

XC said earlier (I can't find how to copy threads so I'll do it manually).... "Throughout these threads this is still a lot of talk overstated talk about safety that is covering for what some folks really want, to buddy-fly their way around the race course.

BB has even said leading out is a losing strategy. Strange, champions of the past weren't afraid to lead out. Is this the way we are heading?

FLARM with stealth as it is now really works well in a contest setting for collision avoidance. Those who claim otherwise have largely never tried it and/or want (need) to see others to make their way around the race course. Seems kind of weak-assed in my opinion. "

Sean,

Your statements are increasingly close to ad hominem attacks for anyone that disagrees with you. So let me join you, albeit on the other side.

SOME folks (me included) really, really don't want to die because some Luddite wants to turn back the clock on new technology.

SOME folks want to see people because they don't want to hit them. NOT because they're weak assed followers.

And SOME folks want to spend their evenings with their loved ones for a long long time.

And THIS folk couldn't care less about following. THIS folk simply doesn't want to die unnecessarily.

I'm actually so sick of this stupid discussion that I'll make a statement right now. I WILL NOT fly in a contest where Luddites like yourself choose to risk death for some purported "strong assed" manly chest thumping stupidity.

Aren't you safety officer for our club? God, I shudder at the thought.