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#171
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Liam Finley wrote:
Please don't misconstrue these remarks to mean I have anything against attracting mildly retarded pilots into soaring. Quite to the contrary, without them who would buy all the second hand PW-5's and Russia's? Hey, who are you calling MILDLY retarded? I do everything 100%... :P I've decided one small, good way to help get more interest is to get post-solo/pre-license students to fly as often as possible with licensed pilots. Split the cost, have the licensed pilot do all the flying from the backseat, and stay up a long time. Cheaper than dual, a challenge for the pilot trying to fly from the rear seat, and educational for the front seater/student. Also a great way to learn how to split duties (radio/traffic vs. stick fiddling). -- ------------+ Mark Boyd Avenal, California, USA |
#172
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Tom Seim wrote:
In retrospect, I don't know if I would put with, today, what I had to endure 25 years ago to get my license. Training could be sped up thru I really think the training required to get a license/learn to solo soar safely is the biggest deterrent, next to airsickness. Golfers, swimmers, etc. can enjoy their sport to some extent even if they do it at a very novice level. I can get someone sailing a dinghy enough to not die in about a weekend. Not a chance of soloing a sailplane in a weekend if you've never flown anything before. Scuba, snorkelling, rock climbing, etc. have "solo" beginner levels. Soaring just doesn't. It's just harder... -- ------------+ Mark Boyd Avenal, California, USA |
#173
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The way I read the FARs,..... it takes 20 Flights in a glider,
aeronatical experience, if you do not have a power license. This could be done in areas where there is good lift, rather teach SOARING by flying one or two hrs at a time, than making all those launches the way they do it in Germany in many places. Interesting that there is no requirement for minmum time, like in power training (hrs)! The only requirement is the two hrs of solo flight time mentioned, which in no lift sites could take quite a few launches. All this refers to US FARs From what I've seen, before safe solo aerotow requires 25-50 flights for pure novices. Winch or autotow may be easier. I dunno... With a power rating, or 40 hrs of power time under your belt it could be done with 13 flights. All this, Of course, has to be cleverly arranged, to fit into the rest of the framework, dual and soloflights required. AND those are minima. Some students learn fast, very few never get it. Dieter B 1408997CFI Life Member SSA I've seen very experienced power guys solo in four flights. Aerotow is the hardest part. If they've done formation/IFR before especially. I dunno how a pilot with the bare minimum 40 hrs would do... -- ------------+ Mark Boyd Avenal, California, USA |
#174
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The way I read the FARs,..... it takes 20 Flights in a glider,
aeronatical experience, if you do not have a power license. This could be done in areas where there is good lift, rather teach SOARING by flying one or two hrs at a time, than making all those launches the way they do it in Germany in many places. Interesting that there is no requirement for minmum time, like in power training (hrs)! The only requirement is the two hrs of solo flight time mentioned, which in no lift sites could take quite a few launches. The difficult thing in soaring is not the soaring. It's the landing. You only have one try. That is fundamentally different from powered flight. That means a lot more training has to be put in to it. I think 80-100 launches is quite reasonable to be safe. With a power rating, or 40 hrs of power time under your belt it could be done with 13 flights. I hate to think of encountering someone holding a licence after only 13 flights. We have had power pilots taking up soaring. They are usually a bit faster, but not a lot, to get to the exam. PS A well organized school with paid instructors,... With that you are automatically back to the 3000$ Tom mentioned. Or how little do you think an instructor would want to earn? |
#175
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Marcel Duenner wrote:
The difficult thing in soaring is not the soaring. It's the landing. You only have one try. That is fundamentally different from powered flight. That means a lot more training has to be put in to it. I think 80-100 launches is quite reasonable to be safe. Learning to aerotow safely in my experience takes more time than learning to land. By the time the purely new student can safely aerotow for solo, landings seem to be fine. Usually for solo this is about half of your 80-100, and the other half is post-solo and dual practice before the checkride... This is from an informal recollection of about a dozen logbooks... Again, I just don't know how this compares to ground launch (winch) training... I hate to think of encountering someone holding a licence after only 13 flights. We have had power pilots taking up soaring. They are usually a bit faster, but not a lot, to get to the exam. The pilots who were previous hang glider or power pilots really seem to need only 1/2 to 1/4 the # of flights. But the sample I'm basing this on is pilots with hundreds of previous flight hours, not just 40 hours... PS A well organized school with paid instructors,... With that you are automatically back to the 3000$ Tom mentioned. Or how little do you think an instructor would want to earn? There are a FEW clubs that give free instruction in AZ and in CA (Los Angeles area has one). Bless their hearts... They also have less expensive gliders and low fees. But this of course comes with a little less certainty that one can get a glider and instructor when one wants one, too... I'm astounded at the graciousness and charity of some instructors. They are real heroes, IMHO... -- ------------+ Mark Boyd Avenal, California, USA |
#176
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Mark James Boyd wrote:
Tom Seim wrote: In retrospect, I don't know if I would put with, today, what I had to endure 25 years ago to get my license. Training could be sped up thru I really think the training required to get a license/learn to solo soar safely is the biggest deterrent, next to airsickness. It is *one* obvious deterrent, but not the only one. How do you explain otherwise that a lot of people with their exam and hundred of hours post exam leave the sport? In fact most of the people who have taken the exam leave after a couple of years since the number of members is not steadily increasing in clubs, while they regularly graduate a constant flux of newcomers. At least this is what i see here. -- Michel TALON |
#177
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Mark James Boyd writes
I really think the training required to get a license/learn to solo soar safely is the biggest deterrent, next to airsickness. I disagree. I think the biggest deterrent is failing to understand how accessible the whole thing actually is. It's the effort involved in getting onto the airfield and getting involved in the first place that's the problem. Golfers, swimmers, etc. can enjoy their sport to some extent even if they do it at a very novice level. I can get someone sailing a dinghy enough to not die in about a weekend. Not a chance of soloing a sailplane in a weekend if you've never flown anything before. But that's overlooking the fact that going "solo" is not the whole point of gliding. Flying is, and you do that from the moment you start to learn. So you have an instructor in the back for the first 50-100 launches? Doesn't matter. For the most part most of them are good company :P 60 launches in my own logbook so far, since last October, and I'm not solo yet. Sure, I'd like to get there, and more so now that the possibility is actually in sight. But it isn't exactly a huge source of frustration to me. I really am enjoying "the training required to ... solo safely". I know it's a cliché, but it really is as much about the journey as it is about the destination in this case. -- Bill Gribble /---------------------------------------\ | http://www.cotswoldgliding.co.uk | | http://www.scapegoatsanon.demon.co.uk | \---------------------------------------/ |
#178
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Michel Talon writes
How do you explain otherwise that a lot of people with their exam and hundred of hours post exam leave the sport? In fact most of the people who have taken the exam leave after a couple of years since the number of members is not steadily increasing in clubs, while they regularly graduate a constant flux of newcomers. At least this is what i see here. The phenomena of "Been there, done that, got the T-shirt, move onto the next mountain" perhaps? In anything there have to be natural attrition points where something that was once a thrill and a pleasure to participate in when fresh becomes dull and commonplace with repetition and familiarity. -- Bill Gribble /---------------------------------------\ | http://www.cotswoldgliding.co.uk | | http://www.scapegoatsanon.demon.co.uk | \---------------------------------------/ |
#179
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#180
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Bill Gribble wrote:
Michel Talon writes How do you explain otherwise that a lot of people with their exam and hundred of hours post exam leave the sport? In fact most of the people who have taken the exam leave after a couple of years since the number of members is not steadily increasing in clubs, while they regularly graduate a constant flux of newcomers. At least this is what i see here. The phenomena of "Been there, done that, got the T-shirt, move onto the next mountain" perhaps? In anything there have to be natural attrition points where something that was once a thrill and a pleasure to participate in when fresh becomes dull and commonplace with repetition and familiarity. In my opinion, this is rather related to age. Soaring is well suited for young people or old ones, not to the intermediate age (approx. 20 to 40). Youg people having learnt and flown a couple of years later get married, have children and then have no more money ot time to devote to soaring until the children are grown up and can live by their own means. Then a few of them return to soaring. |
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