Phantom-II development story

"Elmshoot" wrote in message
...
I still like twins. Not only in the plane! I have made 3 carrier single
engine
landings. 2 others on the beach. Without a doubt one was a engine loss on
the
cat. I would have given that one back to the taxpayers. And my survival
whould
be suspect. I'm very disapointed that the follow on fighters are singles.
We
have now given a dollar figure to what a life is worth. 1 engine.
Sparky

Three SE traps? Somebody was trying to tell you to change careers.

About 60% of my 4800 hours were in twin-engine aircraft. Had 7 engine
failures that required SE landings (No CV, but maybe somebody was telling me
the same thing). The remainder, F-8's and A-4's, not a hiccup from the
motor.

R / John

John- About 60% of my 4800 hours were in twin-engine aircraft. Had 7 engine
failures that required SE landings (No CV, but maybe somebody was telling me
the same thing). The remainder, F-8's and A-4's, not a hiccup from the
motor. BRBR

About 1000 hours in SE A/C, F-16N and 'T', A-4E,F, F+, M. Never lost an engine
but DID have two J52-6(both A-4E) engines come unglued when I was CO. One guy
made it(my XO) and one didn't(Bug Roach).

E model seat problem made me ground all my 'E' models.

Lost an engine twice in a F-4, in the 'break' at Cubi, and A/B blowout off the
cat...never had any other problems in the F-4 or Turkey.
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

Lost an engine twice in a F-4, in the 'break' at Cubi, and A/B blowout off
the
cat...never had any other problems in the F-4 or Turkey.

You never had any problems in the Turkey? Did you fly the -B or -D,
because I thought the TF30s regularly suffered from compressor stalls and
turbine blade failures (especially early on before it was modified). -A
pilots I've spoken to talked about having the fly the engine just as much as
having to fly the plane. So I would've thought that it'd make a great
posterboy for the 2-engine argument, or were they exagerrating? Thanks,

Tony

Three SE traps? Somebody was trying to tell you to change careers.


I thought it was a reminder to stay out of SE airplanes. While others love the
scooter I was loath to fly it with THE engine. I figure the T-38/F-5 would be
my choice of mount when I become a multi-millionair.

Sparky

elmshoot- I figure the T-38/F-5 would be
my choice of mount when I become a multi-millionair. BRBR

I'm gonna have two. An F-4S and a A-4F+.
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

On 8/27/04 6:54 AM, in article , "John
Carrier" wrote:


"Elmshoot" wrote in message
...
I still like twins. Not only in the plane! I have made 3 carrier single
engine
landings. 2 others on the beach. Without a doubt one was a engine loss on
the
cat. I would have given that one back to the taxpayers. And my survival
whould
be suspect. I'm very disapointed that the follow on fighters are singles.
We
have now given a dollar figure to what a life is worth. 1 engine.
Sparky

Three SE traps? Somebody was trying to tell you to change careers.

About 60% of my 4800 hours were in twin-engine aircraft. Had 7 engine
failures that required SE landings (No CV, but maybe somebody was telling me
the same thing). The remainder, F-8's and A-4's, not a hiccup from the
motor.

R / John



John,

Is it your contention from these statements that single engine fighters are
already more reliable than twins?

--Woody

On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 11:20:43 GMT, "Doug \"Woody\" and Erin Beal"
wrote:

On 8/27/04 6:54 AM, in article , "John
Carrier" wrote:

Three SE traps? Somebody was trying to tell you to change careers.

About 60% of my 4800 hours were in twin-engine aircraft. Had 7 engine
failures that required SE landings (No CV, but maybe somebody was telling me
the same thing). The remainder, F-8's and A-4's, not a hiccup from the
motor.

R / John
John,

Is it your contention from these statements that single engine fighters are
already more reliable than twins?

--Woody

Dunno about John, but my conclusion is that there is no essential
advantage in combat between a one and two jet aircraft. As long as T/W
is adequate, it doesn't make much difference. The increased complexity
of dual systems raises the support costs and increases the probability
of an aircraft being unavailable due to maintenance. The redundance of
the second engine allows for some recoveries for inflight emergencies,
but a good argument can be made that battle damage losses aren't
impacted statistically between one and two engine birds.

There are very good arguments to be made for both sides of the issue.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
"Phantom Flights, Bangkok Nights"
Both from Smithsonian Books
***www.thunderchief.org

SNIP

About 60% of my 4800 hours were in twin-engine aircraft. Had 7 engine
failures that required SE landings (No CV, but maybe somebody was telling
me
the same thing). The remainder, F-8's and A-4's, not a hiccup from the
motor.

R / John



John,

Is it your contention from these statements that single engine fighters
are
already more reliable than twins?

--Woody

No, merely that greater "twin-engine" reliability is a fiction, amply
supported by both statistical and anecdotal (aka "inconvenient") evidence.
Incidentally, the F-8 and the A-4 were a hell of a lot more fun to fly than
the F-4 and F-14. I also readily admit that the F-4 was a better fighter
than the F-8 (although many F-4 drivers never demonstrated that fact) and
the F-14 was a better fighter than the F-4.

R / John

Does anyone know if this story is true? Is there currently a strong
preference for two engines (e.g., comparing the F-18E to the JSF).
Cheers,

Thanks for the great answers everyone. I thought the story was urban
legend quality based on the fact that wives would care so much about the
details of their husbands jobs. I could easily see the pilots wax
poetically about their mounts, but would have a hard time seeing the wives
listening attentively to details. Let's hope the rest of the book sticks
more to facts. If not, at least there's some great pictures in the book!
Cheers,

Tony

My info on this 2 vs 1 is way out of date; does anyone have up to date
stats? FWIW In about 3500 hours I lost an engine in each of the T33
and 102; 2 engines in 104s, got all 4 of them back (all flameouts; ice
([probably) in the T33 and duct stalls in the others.) But in just
over 2000 hours in the F4 I lost 5 and never got any of them back. 2
shutdown for zero oil pressure, 1 for accessory drive failure, and 2
at once for fuel blockage. On that last one we also lost the airplane.
10/10/78 was my "second birthday".