For Keith Willshaw...

"Denyav" wrote in message
...
told the receiver what random numbers were used. Helps explain why
the USN had less than 10% of the book after 4 months.

So that means in April 1941,at the latest,US had 10% of the book in the
hand.
Can you tell us the percentage of the book available to US on Dec.4,1941?


Of the 50,000 code groups used only 3800 had been cracked

Or did US stop recovery work in April and started hibernating?

Nope the Japanese imtroduced a new 50,000 group additive
book in August 1941 which set them back months

They also had low priority, Joe Rochefort recorded that his group had
little
equipment, the tabulating machines and teletypes needed had been
diverted to the efforts to break the German and Italian codes and
the Japanese diplomatic cipher

He didnt even have a secure comms line to the radio intercept
station. All intercepts had to be delivered by courier. It wasnt
until Febuary 1942 that the group began to read even a small
portion of messages in JN-25

Keith

Of the 50,000 code groups used only 3800 had been cracked

Nope,by December almost 1000 were cracked.

ope the Japanese imtroduced a new 50,000 group additive
book in August 1941 which set them back months

Question was about April not August.
They also had low priority, Joe Rochefort recorded that his group had
little
equipment, the tabulating machines and teletypes needed had been
diverted to the efforts to break the German and Italian codes and
the Japanese diplomatic cipher

After Pearl Harbor suddenly everything changed and US (and British)code
breakers broke all codes that they were unable to crack in 12 months prior to
Pearl Harbor within a few months .
I wonder how this miracle happened,maybe your famous outer space aliens ,this
time masquerading as US (and British) code breakers made it happen.

He didnt even have a secure comms line to the radio intercept
station. All intercepts had to be delivered by courier. It wasnt
until Febuary 1942 that the group began to read even a small
portion of messages in JN-25

Even according to Safford 7000 codes were enough to read the most JN25B coded
messages and many messages could be read with 1500 codes.
Lets remember US had recovered almost 10000 codes by Dec.4

Ah yes the near total erase take 9. Now we are into Denyav trying
to change additive books into code group books. I timed
my effort at 5 minutes plus the 5 minute review before sending.

The story so far,

1) the claims about the war warning message text, dropped after the
war warning text was actually posted. (the warnings are supposed to
make Pearl Harbor the only target)
2) the use of the character in the Pearl Harbor movie played by Dan
Aykroyd as a source of facts, dropped when it was revealed where
the name came from.
3) claims about the various investigations into the Pearl Harbor attack,
dropped when a list of such investigations was posted
4) attempts to promote the relatively recent congressional request to
promote General Short and Admiral Kimmel as proof of a conspiracy
are dropped, after the text of the resolution is posted.
5) claims about what Admiral Kimmel said are backed up by the URL
of the transcript of the congressional request meeting, Kimmel had
been dead for around 30 years before the meeting. The URL text
does not support pre knowledge of the attack and includes over
statements on Kimmels behalf (inventing 800 to 1,000 extra patrol
bombers available)
6) the claim the only investigation to clear Kimmel is the reliable one
despite the claim the findings and evidence have never been released.
Claim dropped again.
7) The claims the investigations were all rigged because it was one
entity investigating itself. Dropped since the claimed only investigation
to clear Kimmel was USN, the USN investigating the USN.
8) Hollywood is a US "premier quasi-governmental PSYOP organization."
Claim dropped.
9) The claim the US needed Pearl to be attacked, apparently the assaults
on Wake, Guam, Midway, the Philippines and US shipping were not enough.
Claim dropped.
10) The claim MacArthur received warnings Hawaii did not, claim dropped.
The same war warnings were sent to all commands in the Pacific.
11) the claim the "McCollum Memo" was a blueprint for US government
actions, dropped after the memo summary was posted, pointing out
what the memo actually said.
12) the claim McCollum was in charge of codebreaking dropped, his
memo header makes it clear he was in a different area.
13) If you write a book that says no conspiracy you are automatically
said to be pushing the official version, and such versions are claimed
to be wrong. No proof mind you. Claim dropped.
14) The conspiracy pushers cannot lie unless they receive official permission.
That was a good one.
15) There are still some USN intercept files still hidden, claim dropped.
16) The attempt to use Stinnett as a source appears to be dropped,
since the claims are so easy to prove wrong it seems. If you question
Stinnett directly he complains about spelling errors rather than reply.
17) The Lietwiler letter, claims dropped after the key text was posted.
18) Only in Washington are investigations rigged with hand picked
documents. Claim dropped.
19) JN-25 was an "easy" code, claim dropped.
20) Churchill quote meaning, claim dropped.
21) If you know one thing perfectly you must know another thing perfectly
(in an attempt to "prove" 1941 = 2001)
22) The war warnings become a blind rather than identifying Pearl as
the target. It would seem Denyav finally read the text after I posted it.
23) Allen Dulles, CIA chief saying they knew in 1941, claim dropped.
24) Denyav is now simply inventing things I have supposed to have said.
25) Denyav is going to keep taking the number of random numbers
recovered and changing this to code group meaning recoveries.
25) It would seem the proof about what I said was irrelevant is not
able to be presented, so claim dropped.
26) The sad attempt to decide where I work has been dropped.

Denyav wrote in message ...

Deleted text,

"Yes folks, Denyav has to announce he does not want to know multiple
times. The 5 additive book came into service on 1 October 1940 and
went out of service on 31 January 1941. It increased the size of the
random number tables from 30,000 to 50,000, plus allowing the clerk
to start from any column, not column 1 of a row on the chosen page.
This further required changes to the message group where the sender"

told the receiver what random numbers were used. Helps explain why
the USN had less than 10% of the book after 4 months.

So that means in April 1941,at the latest,US had 10% of the book in the hand.
Can you tell us the percentage of the book available to US on Dec.4,1941?

Ah this is really really funny, thanks for confirming how little you
care about reality. The book in question is the 5 additive book
as the deleted text makes clear, but that has to be erased,
instead "the book" has to be redefined as the B code book.

People are no doubt well aware by now the multiple times I
have posted the recoveries of the B code book code groups.

Or did US stop recovery work in April and started hibernating?

Yes folks, Denyav is going to use the fact the US stopped working
on the A code book (replaced 1 December 1940) and the 5 additive
book (replaced 1 February 1941) as an attempt to simply close down
the debate into what he would prefer I wrote.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.

Denyav wrote in message ...
Of the 50,000 code groups used only 3800 had been cracked

Nope,by December almost 1000 were cracked.

Wrong, the December 1941 figure for JN-25B code groups
assigned meanings was 3,800.

ope the Japanese imtroduced a new 50,000 group additive
book in August 1941 which set them back months

Question was about April not August.

The reality is Denyav is unable to cope with the fact the number
in April 1941 was 300 JN-25B code groups assigned meanings.

They also had low priority, Joe Rochefort recorded that his group had
little
equipment, the tabulating machines and teletypes needed had been
diverted to the efforts to break the German and Italian codes and
the Japanese diplomatic cipher

After Pearl Harbor suddenly everything changed and US (and British)code
breakers broke all codes that they were unable to crack in 12 months prior to
Pearl Harbor within a few months .
I wonder how this miracle happened,maybe your famous outer space aliens ,this
time masquerading as US (and British) code breakers made it happen.

Translation the massive increases in resources thrown at the problem,
Hawaii had all those unemployed sailors from the sunken ships for
example, add the greater use of radio by the IJN giving more text, then
the fact that the code breakers started from knowing 3,800 meanings
in December 1941, not zero in December 1940, (and as everyone
knows it is easier to figure out a missing word in a sentence than a
missing sentence with only one word). The fact the code had uppercase
(2 meanings per code group) and auxiliary tables was known, the fact
the "next x groups uppercase" markers were well known and used as
ways to crack the messages (the difference table) in December 1941,
versus not being known in December 1940 and so on.

JN-25 was the sort of code that the more you knew the quicker you
could learn the missing parts.

Yes folks, Denyav tries to announce that the code was compromised
in 2 months in December 1940 and January 1941, but now has to
turn around and say the allies, with more resources, starting from a
much higher level of knowledge, could not compromise the code in
6 months. You see for Denyav to be right the allies went backwards
in 1942 when it came to reading JN-25. Simple really, just invent facts
and delete the problems.

By the way one of the signals used as "proof" the allies could read
JN-25 when required is the following, British dd/mm/yy format.

"XXXXX NAVAL MESSAGE T.O.O.2339A/12 IN Received: 12.2.42

Addressed: B.A.D. Washington 234
From: Admiralty
Japanese aircraft carrier SHOKAKU intends
to leave Yokosuka and pick up aircraft 9th February

It is intended preparations of First and
Second aircraft Squadrons were to complete 7th
February, sail and embark aircraft 8th. E.T.A.
Palao 1200/12th

All above from special intelligence. 2339A/12

This is now mid February 1942, with two extra
months of work, more resources, with more messages to
work on, with forward feedback in action (the fewer missing
words the easier it is to figure out the missing words, with
more of the random number encypherments known the
easier to strip them out). Note it took until the 12th to decrypt
the message which talks about the 7th in future tense, in other
words about a week to crack a simple message.

This has been used to claim real time decodings of much
larger messages in 1941.

So in mid February 1942 the allies could crack relatively
small, standard, messages after about a week.

He didnt even have a secure comms line to the radio intercept
station. All intercepts had to be delivered by courier. It wasnt
until Febuary 1942 that the group began to read even a small
portion of messages in JN-25

Even according to Safford 7000 codes were enough to read the most
JN25B coded messages and many messages could be read with 1500
codes.

Safford never wrote the work being quoted, and the example
appears to be about a special case in 1943.

Lets remember US had recovered almost 10000 codes by Dec.4

No, the 10,000 claim is straight fiction. The real number was 3,800


Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.

Most of this message is simply deleted text put back in.

deleted text,

"As usual most of my words are deleted, new tactic time though, simply
lie about what has been written. Denyav has decided to go back to
a message I wrote on June 14, bypassing the JN-25 information I
posted more recently. I await with interest his retrieval of information
I sent in say 1990 as another desperate tactic to avoid actually answering.

"I expect him to heroically delete my reply and the heroically repeat he
is repeating his same junk. Two heroic acts means another self
awarded medal."

yes folks, if the theory requires a pink elephant driving a BMW
while towing a trailer upon which a giraffe is doing the hula dance
Denyav will announce elephants go to slimming clubs, wear lots
of pink make up and can drive, while giraffes are native to Hawaii.

Denyav wrote in message ...
This should be good, the attempt to imply I am paid to spend so
much time laughing will no doubt continue.

Surely you are not paid to protect official position.

Yes folks, the full retreat starts.

deleted text,

Denyav has decided this is my work it seems, which is great, I
will get his address and send him the bill.

Yes folks, Denyav's word is classified by him as Holy writ, no proof
is required. Much laughter generated. I am still waiting for proof
about what I am supposed to have dated the McCollum memo. I
like the way Denyav assumes because he needs to hide the truth
the same applies to others.

Translation Denyav needs to pretend he has people agreeing with
him even when they do not. Churchill, Stimson and Hoover for a start,
Dulles without any attempt to

They do not agree with me,but I do agree with what they say.
Thats a small but important difference.

Churchill, all the decoded messages placed in the public arena.
Stimson, the Japanese must fire first. Dulles a claimed quote,
Hoover no quote at all presented.

See any Pearl Harbor conspiracies there?

provide the evidence. "countless" is
defined as Denyav counting himself multiple time, 1, 2 3, many.

I quoted them several times in my posts too but according to you they were
"irrelevant" How soon you forgat that.

Translation Denyav will not allow the quotes to exist in the same
message where the flaws in them are pointed out. Oh yes, the
"irrelevant" claim is simply another invention.

Translation Denyav will continue to try and smear, using his ideas of
insults of course. He has announced he is not paid to push his jokes,
which is not surprising, those who know the truth would not pay to push

Deleted text,

lies and those pushing the lies would not pay for such mediocre efforts.

Note now the absurd attempt to try and avoid the fact he has no
long range "what does that person do" device.

Apparently many sharing these ideas,people know that what their officials are
telling them is not always the truth.

Translation if a person in public life tells a lie about being given
a speeding ticket, they must be clearly responsible for mass murder.

Yes folks, if the evidence does not fit ignore it.

The evidences that you find find "irrelevant" could easily qualify for the
above.

Yes folks, Denyav tells us he ignores the evidence that does
not fit.

Simply I never said that, another claim without proof.

I guess you do not even read your own posts.

This is really funny, Denyav cannot provide any evidence, all
he can keep providing is the fiction he prefers to the truth.

Note how the text on what "I never said" is deleted, it has
to be since Denyav cannot back the claim.

Denyav is having trouble coping with the idea the work on the A code
stopped after it went out of service while work picked up on the B code.

An other way of backpedalling or accepting code recovery work has never been
stopped.BTW hiding behind terms is a pretty common way.

Denyav is having trouble coping with the idea the work on the A code
stopped after it went out of service while work picked up on the B code.

By the way folks Denyav is going to keep announcing he has no
idea about the code, changing recoveries of random numbers
into recovery of the meanings of code groups. The allies knew
around 5,000 random numbers from the 5 additive book, which

deleted text,

"ended use on 31 January 1941. They had 300 B code group
meanings assigned by 1 April 1941. Different things.

deleted text, on the idea the failure to change additives compromised
the B code.

"If it did compromise the code values then it should have compromised
the A version as well, yet the USN reports knowing around 5% of the
code values when work stopped around March 1941.

Thanks for a really great laugh, they US recovered around 5,000 random
number additives of the 5 additive book, out of 50,000, the additive book
that had been in use for months before the A to B codebook change over.
This gives an idea of just how little the allies could read in early 1941
since the additives needed to be removed before the code groups could
be looked at.

This is great, this shows Denyav's techniques so well.

Firstly changing the random numbers, additives, into code values.
The random numbers, additives, are used to disguise the code
groups and need to be removed first, no additives no code groups.

Lots of detractors included to this part of message so obviously there is
something to hide here.

Yes folks, Denyav cannot cope with the facts, they must have a
hidden message in them.

Lets summarize your own position:
1)You said that codes are something like a special language.I agree.
2)You said the recovering of the codes is something like learning a
language,slow and time consuming.Agreed.
3)Now you are trying to defend your not defendable position by hiding an
alphabet soup.

Yes folks, Denyav now announces he cannot cope with the facts.

4)If we continue to use language analogy:JN25A and B are not different
languages they are different dialects of the same language. But you are
trying to sell them as as if they were different languages

Sigh, A code, groups in order, that is alphabetical and numerical,
one meaning per code group.
B code, groups scrambled, 2 meanings for most of the code groups,
auxiliary tables for key items.

The "different dialects" is basically another attempt to try the
"easily breakable" line.

5)Lets continue to use language analogy:
How many words are there in any language,for example English?
How many words do you use everday?
Very small percentage I guess.

Just ignore the fact the wonder messages claimed to be intercepted
were using the unusual language, and in any case the messages were
not sent by radio.

That was exactly the point of Safford when he asserted that 7000
codes were enough to read almost all JN25B coded messages,
even though JN25B had almost 55000 codes.

1) It was not Safford.
2) It appears the quote is about a specific case in 1943.

Now you are trying to use alphabet as detractor and trying to hide the fact
that US had just before PH had 10000 JN25B codes in the hand,which was
,according to Safford,much more than he needed to read the most of JN25B
dispatces !.

Yes folks, Denyav needs a fact so he creates one, the number of groups
recovered was around 3,800 to 1 December 1941.

6)Now Midway,its enlightening to see that the custodians of official version
are actually challenging the official version to defend their hard to defend
positions.

Yes folks Denyav now needs to invent a whole new history. Apparently
the fact the contribution allied intercepts and code breaking made has
been known for decades has to be rewritten.

On many issues the officials and historians disagree,but Midway is not one of
them,there is a consensus among historians that the outcome of Midway is the
product the superior intelligence.

The ability of the USN to read the IJN codes gave them the best
chance yet to ambush the IJN.

So According to your assertions US intellingence that was unable to recover
enough codes in 12 months prior to Pearl Harbor to read Japanase messages but After Pearl Harbor US intelligence managed to achive
within a few months what it could not do in one year before PH!.

Yes folks Denyav does not have a clue, and needs to debate himself
to avoid the facts. Reality says the allies knew how JN-25B worked
in December 1941 but lacked enough code group meanings to read
the messages. That changed in 1942 when the allies threw more
resources at the problem, using the techniques developed in 1941
to crack the code.

deleted text,

"Secondly ignoring the fact the "5" version of the code stopped being
used in January 1941 and the USN stopped working on the A version
in around March 1941, since the IJN decided to stop using the A code
in December 1940. Just try and pretend I am running some sort of
line the USN stopped work at that time. Above all do not even begin
to understand that Washington was weeks behind current intercepts
because they were mailed in from the Pacific.

Thirdly changing the subject. Move away from the fact that if the
failure to change additive books compromised the B code it
must have compromised the A code, since the US had only 5%
of the A code book when work ended on it around March 1941."

How did they do that? Maybe now famous outer space aliens helped them to
recover codes after PH?.

Yes folks, Denyav tries to announce that the code was compromised
in 2 months in December 1940 and January 1941, but now has to
turn around and say the allies, with more resources, starting from a
much higher level of knowledge, could not compromise the code in
6 months. You see for Denyav to be right the allies went backwards
in 1942 when it came to reading JN-25. Simple really, just invent facts
and delete the problems.

Deleted text,

"So tell us all please what A code values did the US recover in say
the second half of 1941?

Yes folks, Holy Writ time, no proof offered about what they could read.
By the way if it was 90% by December 1941 can you explain how this
percentage went down by April/May 1942, when the allies were trying
to figure out Midway and Coral Sea? Or that the all knowing intelligence
system missed the IJN battleships coming out at Midway and the way
the IJN carriers came [into the Coral Sea behind the US carriers.]

yes folks, Denyav cannot answer how come his claims mean the
US could read less in 1942 than in 1941 so it is time to change
the subject.

The reason the allies could read more in 1942 was quite simple,
they had recovered more of the code. I like the idea what was
possible in May 1942 is supposed to be less than November
1941 despite 6 months more work. Oh yes the USN went onto
trying to read IJN messages immediately on 18 March 1942,
it was then they had enough of the code to try this.

Yes folks, just announce in effect the US went backwards
in code reading ability in 1941 to fit the conspiracy.

Deleted text,

"How about the fact just before midway the allies were intercepting
around 60% of IJN traffic and decoding about 20% of the intercepted
messages, plus gaining some parts of around 70% of messages.

"As of 20 April 1945 the USN found it had 35,761 additives of JN-25B7,
the version in use 1 August to 3 December 1941, with the probability
several hundred might be bad. So 70% of the additives were thought
to be known, this was upped to 47,500 by August 1945, as part of the
reworking of the messages. As of 1 December 1941 the USN thought
it knew 3,800 code group meanings.

Yes folks, the fact the IJN used the old additive book told the allies
the basic code system was still in place, 5 digit code groups with
valid numbers divisible by 3.

There was no need to worry about basic information like say the
new valid code groups were now divisible by say 2.

Just ignore the new code introduced auxiliary tables, two meanings
for the same code group, and stopped having the code groups in
alphabetical order. Just pretend the IJN radioed the code book
to the allies.

So now the lies begin. Firstly the failure to update the random number
book enabled the allies to confirm the basic system was still in place.
The valid code groups were 5 digit numbers divisible by 3. Secondly
the allies did not have all the valid random numbers, additives, used
to disguise the valid code groups, thirdly the Japanese did not put
out messages containing all 55,000 valid code group meanings in
the two months, December 1940 and January 1941.

If you would like to know the exact code groups recovered it was
"Unfinished or Continuous" [i.e., a running tally]

April 1, 1941: "approximately 300 values recovered"
May 1, 1941: "approximately 400 values recovered"
June 1, 1941: "approximately 1100 values recovered"
July 1, 1941: "approximately 1100 values recovered"
August 1, 1941: "approximately 2000 values recovered"
Sept 1, 1941: "approximately 2000 values recovered"
Oct 1, 1941: "approximately 2400

"Completed during October 1941"
Nov 1, 1941: "600 values recovered" [i.e., a total of 3,000 values as of
this date]

"Completed during November 1941"
Dec 1, 1941: "800 values recovered" [i.e., a total of 3,800 values as of
this date]

"Unfinished or continuous"
Jan 1, 1942: "Approximately 6,180 values recovered"

Remembering some previously assigned values could be changed
by later discoveries.

So by the end of December 1941 the allies thought they had around 7%
of the code book recovered.

By the way people will be happy to know the quote assigned
to Safford (about the number of code groups needed) was
written by someone else, and appears to be related to a
situation in 1943 where units were sending very standardised
messages. Hard to tell exactly given how badly the quote is
transcribed.

Yeah right,His words are irrelevant too.

Yes folks, instead of providing the quote in context, with proper
author Denyav will simply ignore the problems.

When did the IJN attack US territory again after 1942?
Where did the new IJN carriers come from?

Replace IJN with OBL,japanese pilots with Atta&Co,
replace Japanese planes with Boeings.

Yes folks, since the US railways used steam engines in 1941
the US railways use steam engines in 2001. Same logic.

Thanks for admitting the conspiracy people do not match the evidence.

Thanks for admitting the official people do indeed produce the evidence.

Yes the official people do produce the evidence, all non conspiracy.

deleted text,

"Ah a good laugh does wonders for the soul. Apparently Senators
and Congressman, some major opponents of FDR, failed to make
the evidence public and now this is apparently because they
always meet behind closed doors. Presumably never let out onto
the floor of the house etc.

Ah yes, so he kept the secret until he died, allowing the system to
railroad the commanders etc. etc. Dies was a very anti communist
person, the claimed information could be used to discredit much
of the democrat administration even post war, but strange to tell
the claimed information never surfaces until people are dead.

"Yes folks, change the subject, since the Red Cross decided to
prepare in case Hawaii was attacked by air they must have been
in on the conspiracy right. After all if any arm of the US government
does the same the claim is it was part of a conspiracy.

Translation Denyav denies the tide is in, the air is just a little wet.

By the way in case people are wondering Denyav is wandering the
conspiracy theory web sites, yet again Mark Willey's one or
conspiracy central, looking for that out of context quote to throw in.
Just type a key phrase into a search engine and see which site
Denyav is copying, watch the typos though.

Yes folks, remember the conspiracy to cause Pearl Harbor must
have happened pre war and that Churchill says all the decoded
messages were released.

In case people are wondering Denyav is mining the conspiracy
site of Mark Willey, the name he dare not utter, presumably he will
endorse the claim the US was trying to lose Coral Sea and Midway
as well and that the US never gave Pearl Harbor any help cracking
JN-25, the unit there had to start from scratch in December 1941.

There are more names to be added from the page if Denyav wants
to continue this line, you know the world is flat because some people
say it is.

Willey is like Stinnett, the evidence does not match the claims.

Which Rhorpe? I presume the claimed messages sent by General
Thorpe. The problem is quite simple, the Japanese diplomatic
system did not know about the attack on Pearl Harbor, rather hard
to credit a cracked diplomatic message with having the information.

Instead what was intercepted was the "winds message" set up,
the open code to be sent if communications were cut telling the
Japanese about who the Japanese were about to be at war with.

See, Thorpe, Elliott R. East Wind Rain: The Intimate Account of an
Intelligence Officer in the Pacific, 1939-1949. Boston: Gambit, 1969.

No, the IJN officers present told people about the communications.
This is the trouble for the conspiracy the IJN keeps shooting it down."

h yes, Leib waited until after Hull was dead before telling the
world of his claims. Does this make Hull a conspirator? If so
a stupid one by letting the claimed secret out?

It was no secret that Hull was not very fond of FDR-Stimson-Marshall trios'
plans and also it was very well known that Leib was a close friend of Hull.
The Motive of leakage to Leib was probably to warn Japanase but who knows?

Yes folks, just ignore the fact Leib waited until no one could
contradict his claims, the fact the signal claimed being
discussed was never sent by radio, the fact Leib is supposed
to have written about it in the New York Times on 8 December
1941 but it seems no one noticed, a the time, during the war
or after the war. Oh yes I like the way Hull is put as an outsider
to the FDR-Stimson-Marshall "plot". Marshall is interesting,
much more to do with his post war activities, after all Admiral
Stark was head of the Navy, the service actually trying to
decode IJN signals, not the Army, but FDR-Stimson-Stark
does not work because the objective is to smear.

So let us understand this correctly Denyav is accusing Hull of
giving away one of the US's greatest military secrets, the ability
to read IJN codes,

(Dutch Captain goes missing as well)

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.

"Denyav" wrote in message
...
Of the 50,000 code groups used only 3800 had been cracked

Nope,by December almost 1000 were cracked.


1000 is less than 3800

ope the Japanese imtroduced a new 50,000 group additive
book in August 1941 which set them back months

Question was about April not August.

August comes after April

They also had low priority, Joe Rochefort recorded that his group had
little
equipment, the tabulating machines and teletypes needed had been
diverted to the efforts to break the German and Italian codes and
the Japanese diplomatic cipher

After Pearl Harbor suddenly everything changed and US (and British)code
breakers broke all codes that they were unable to crack in 12 months prior
to
Pearl Harbor within a few months .

Thats what typically happens when priorities change

I wonder how this miracle happened,maybe your famous outer space aliens
,this
time masquerading as US (and British) code breakers made it happen.


Extra money, people and equipment made it happen, just as the
US armed forces increased in size rather quickly, this tends
to happen during a major shooting war.

He didnt even have a secure comms line to the radio intercept
station. All intercepts had to be delivered by courier. It wasnt
until Febuary 1942 that the group began to read even a small
portion of messages in JN-25

Even according to Safford 7000 codes were enough to read the most JN25B
coded
messages and many messages could be read with 1500 codes.

Safford is not a good source, but since only 3,800 had been cracked !

Lets remember US had recovered almost 10000 codes by Dec.4



Nope.

Keith

Churchill, all the decoded messages placed in the public arena.
Stimson, the Japanese must fire first. Dulles a claimed quote,
Hoover no quote at all presente


Churchill:"..from the end of 1940 the Americans had pierced the vital Japanase
ciphers and were decoding large numbers of their Military and diplomatic
telegrams"

FDR:"The war starts tomorrow"
Dec.6,1941

As I said before being a custodian of conspiracies is a tough job nowadays.
See any Pearl Harbor conspiracies there?

Yeah right,nobody sees anything.
Translation if a person in public life tells a lie about being given
a speeding ticket, they must be clearly responsible for mass murder.

Translation if a public person or official tells a capital lie about Pearl
Harbor,there is no reason to believe that they are telling truth about other
similar incidents,for example 9/11.

Denyav is having trouble coping with the idea the work on the A code
stopped after it went out of service while work picked up on the B code.

Congrulations you have finally accepted that recovery work did not stop in
March or April 1941 but actually accelerated.

1) It was not Safford.
2) It appears the quote is about a specific case in 1943.


It was Safford it refers to whole JN25B decoding process.Yes folks, Denyav
needs a fact so he creates one, the number of groups

recovered was around 3,800 to 1 December 1941.


Just add up your own monthly recovery numbers after April 41 without trying to
hide the numbers behind some definition walls,you will find a totally different
number,and this number will be very close to 10000.

Yes folks Denyav now needs to invent a whole new history. Apparently
the fact the contribution allied intercepts and code breaking made has
been known for decades has to be rewritten.


You are excellent in contradicting yourself.
How the Allies that,according to your own statements,were so incapable of
reading JN25B messages prior to Pearl Harbor,became so sophisticated and
efficient code breakers right after Pearl Harbor.
How did this miracle happen,with the help of Mr.Willshaws outer space aliens
maybe?

The ability of the USN to read the IJN codes gave them the best
chance yet to ambush the IJN.

Heck,wasn't it the SAME USN that was unable to read any JN25B messages only a
few months ago?
I guess USN recruited outer space aliens as code breakers right after Pearl
Harbor

Yes folks Denyav does not have a clue, and needs to debate himself
to avoid the facts. Reality says the allies knew how JN-25B worked
in December 1941 but lacked enough code group meanings to

Nice use of detractors,Allies knew how JN25B worked already in December
1940,not in December 1941.
There is one full year difference and Allies did go to hibernating in December
1940.
to figure out Midway and Coral Sea? Or that the all knowing intelligence
system missed the IJN battleships coming out at Midway and the way
the IJN carriers came [into the Coral Sea behind the US carriers.]

Wasn't Midway a victory of superior intelligence gathering?

000 is less than 3800

Obviously 10000,sorry for typo.

August comes after April
Right but still question was about April.

Thats what typically happens when priorities change

No,as soon as Japanese fleet assembled in early Nov.,OP-20-GY -1 was alerted
and devoted almost all of its resorces to JN25B messages on 7/24 basis.

Extra money, people and equipment made it happen, just as the
US armed forces increased in size rather quickly, this tends
to happen during a major shooting war.

Problem is that the US knew that it was going to happen almost one full year in
advance.

Safford is not a good source, but since only 3,800 had been cracked !

Safford is pretty good source if you add up monthly totals you will find
another number

Nope.

True sir US,(and Probably Brits) were able to read almost 90% of Jn25B
dispatches prior to Dec.7

"Denyav" wrote in message
...
Churchill, all the decoded messages placed in the public arena.
Stimson, the Japanese must fire first. Dulles a claimed quote,
Hoover no quote at all presente


Churchill:"..from the end of 1940 the Americans had pierced the vital
Japanase
ciphers and were decoding large numbers of their Military and diplomatic
telegrams"


Indeed they had penetrated Purple , the diplomatic cipher
and a number of other codes, but not JN-25

FDR:"The war starts tomorrow"
Dec.6,1941


Quite so , an attack of the Phillipines and Malaya
was expected and all Pacific commands had been
issued a war warning.

Keith

"Denyav" wrote in message
...
000 is less than 3800

Obviously 10000,sorry for typo.

August comes after April
Right but still question was about April.


A change in August is clearly signifucant when considering
the situation in December

Thats what typically happens when priorities change

No,as soon as Japanese fleet assembled in early Nov.,OP-20-GY -1 was
alerted
and devoted almost all of its resorces to JN25B messages on 7/24 basis.


But had few such resources. There were only 36 trained cryptographers
available and at any one time only a small number (2 to 5) was assigned to
JN-25

Evcen had JN-25 been cracked Pearl Harbor attack plan was never broadcast
in JN-25 or any other cipher and the fleet maintained complete radio
silence.
All that could have been surmised was that an air attack somewhere
in the Pacific was likely. This had already been surmised which is why
the carriers of the USN were delivering extra aircraft to Midway
and Wake in early December 1941 and why Force Z which was
planned to include a carrier was sent by the RN to Singapore

Yamaoto's biographer (Hiroyuki Agawa) served under him in
the IJN and is quite clear that orders for the attack were
hand delivered and extreme precautions taken within the
navy to avoid compromising the plan.

Extra money, people and equipment made it happen, just as the
US armed forces increased in size rather quickly, this tends
to happen during a major shooting war.

Problem is that the US knew that it was going to happen almost one full
year in
advance.


No they knew AN attack was coming but the expected venue
was the Phillipines.

Safford is not a good source, but since only 3,800 had been cracked !

Safford is pretty good source if you add up monthly totals you will find
another number


Your misrepresenting his words isnt helpful.

Nope.

True sir US,(and Probably Brits) were able to read almost 90% of Jn25B
dispatches prior to Dec.7

No sir they were not, the data released from Bletchley Park
as written about in 'The Emperors Codes' by Michael Smith
makes it quite clear that neither nation was reading
JN-25 at that time. This is reinforced by the
"History of OP-20-GYP-1"


Keith